Merrecks vaccine in bantams/older chicks

[EggSighted4Life]

But I just don’t know what to believe! If you can’t trust your vet, or an experienced employee, where do you turn.

Hi, welcome to BYC!

I'm definitely NO expert... but the other day at the feed store I heard someone say they found lice on their chickens. And their Stew Pidasso vet told them to put the chicken into a large sack of DE and shake the bird like shake n bake! A vet... I said tell me who, cuz I would never EVER take my animals there.

Also heard a vet tell someone they know they need to worm if they see worms in droppings. Well, that part is true... but what about the species that stay in the intestine and only the microscopic eggs pass in the droppings?

Not all vets are created equal... someone HAD to graduate at the bottom of their class too.

The only thing that employee is experienced at is taking orders for chicks to sell. Possibly following a flow chart to answer questions. Maybe NO real animal experience... as noted by their stupid suggestion!

Personally, if offered a chick which had received the Marek's vaccine, I would absolutely refuse to take it into my flock

Yep, doesn't mean they don't have it... just that they won't show the symptom before shedding virus to everyone.

I got 2 failed shipments of bantams fro MPC last year. It was MOSTLY the fault of USPS, but seemed like weak stock, lots of star gazers. 2 chicks out of about 30 total survived, barely. Even though they say bantams are just as strong... I hatch Silkies and Marans, and the bantams are definitely a bit more fragile. And oh so cute!

In breeding for resistance, is the logic that the weaker birds will die off, and the ones that live will build & pass on immunity?

As far as I know... you can't build immunity to Marek's. The other birds system were strong enough that it just inserted into their DNA to make copies of itself and act out later when something else in the immune system is compromised.

There has however been a gene identified that is associated with RESISTANCE. So I wonder what is the difference between immunity and resistance?

When it presented last year was in a Silkie cross and a Silkie. The first one lived 3 weeks before I decided it wasn't a vitamin deficit and culled, knowing that if the bird couldn't stand to poo that was no life for either of us. At which time the other chick (9 ish weeks old for both) presented with limping and I culled immediately. Those were the only 2 losses out of 82 birds I had. Maybe it wasn't a very viral strain.

Can't wait to see how this years round of chicks do! Got at least 30 growing out right now.

We all have different ideas and mindsets. So you may get just as many varying opinions on here. But what's important is that you do what seems to make the most sense to you. You are the one that has to live with your decision. What works for some may not work for other. Trust your gut. And if you learn something new or it isn't working out, switch it up.

I no longer will try to correct bent toes or splay leg. But other will try with every chick that hatches. I will do everything I can to help a chick thrive but once failure to thrive sets in.. I cull instead of letting them die slowly from starvation. It's a hard line to take when selecting for health and vigor... but I feel strongly about not breeding forward defects that will effect all future stock. Having weakness invites disease and predators IMHO. When I start to think well MAYBE this one, my daughter helps encourage me to stick to my goals.

I would get some poultry Nutri Drench (PND) on hand for the shipped chicks. It has amino acids that other vitamins do not. I might do a drop directly to the beak of each chick as it comes out of the box. I give them their first drinker with PND and electrolytes mixed in. There are many recipes for homemade electrolytes that I think are just as effective as those package ones but a lot cheaper. I also learned that the bantam chicks do better if I crush the crumbles a bit extra for the first week or two.

I don't know if it should be illegal. But I do think it gives people a false sense of security.

if you have a really bad strain of Marek's that kills off your entire flock--well, that strain of the virus stops there.

Does it? Or does it just lie and wait for the next victims?

Hope you shipment arrives quickly and LOUD.

 

[lazy gardener]

As far as I know... you can't build immunity to Marek's.

I have very little experience with Marek's dz. But, often, I read posts about a back yard flock where a bird or two dies of Marek's dz., yet the rest of the flock is not affected. IMO, Marek's dz. is an opportunistic disease that affects the weakest birds in the flock. I'm going to take the time to type a paragraph from Harvey Ussery's book "The Small-Scale Poultry Flock" to give validity to my opinion. I quote Pg. 50, where he speaks of universal exposure to cocci and Marek's dz and how a healthy flock responds to those exposures:

"Marek's is a viral disease that kills more chickens than any other disease. Coccidiosis is caused by any of 9 species of protozoans and can cause weakening of growing birds, slow growth, and death. That sounds pretty scary, and the temptation is to choose vaccination by way of insurance. However, I have never had chicks vaccinated-for any disease, ever. It's interesting to note that both the Marek's virus and cocci protozoans are virtually universal-that is, to be found anywhere chickens are raised. Since my flocks have never had a problem with either, it is reasonable to assume that neither is the cause of the associated diseases (in the same way that we can say that viral organisms do not cause the cold, since they are universally present in the environment). Healthy chicks gradually exposed to cocci develop an immunity to them (just as healthy children develop immunities when challenged by exposure to normally present pathogens). The Marek's virus is called out of dormancy by stress. In contrast to the enormously highly confined (which is to say, highly stressed) flocks of the poultry industry, small home flocks-receiving normal exposure to universally ambient pathogens and managed to minimize stress-do not require vaccinations to thrive. Since there is as well a small chance of harmful reactions to vaccines, I avoid them."

My take on Marek's dz. It's everywhere. I encourage wild turkeys to visit my yard. My management style is to avoid crowding, build immunity through use of fermented feed and deep litter management. I sound like a broken record when I continually stress that a flock MUST have at least 4 s.f. in coop and 10 s.f. in run per bird. I also continually stress that a flock should never be kept on a bare soil run. Providing such housing and feed is not a matter of pampering my birds. It's a matter of doing what I know is beneficial to ensure that they have a strong immune system. Will my flock ever be infected with Marek's dz.? Possibly. But, doing everything in my power to ensure healthy immune systems will helpfully allow my flock to weather such a storm. If that situation does occur, I will pick up the broken pieces (the birds that did not succumb) and move on to breed a stronger flock. I do believe that there is such a thing as birds that have resistance to Marek's dz. Whether that resistance is wrapped up in the bird's genetic code, or minimal exposure over the years has caused overall flock immunity, only God knows!

 

[lazy gardener]

This was exactly my initial concern, and why I hesitated to vaccinate. My vet recently absolutely insisted, but from a utilitarian perspective, it seems that not vaccinating is still a responsible choice.

I certainly hope you didn't cave to a vet's demand regarding Marek's dz. vaccination. IMO, that's unethical for a care provider whether it be animal or human care to DEMAND such and such a vaccine.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

I certainly hope you didn't cave to a vet's demand regarding Marek's dz. vaccination. IMO, that's unethical for a care provider whether it be animal or human care to DEMAND such and such a vaccine.

Ya, my vet insists I need to use a flea control treatment in order for my dogs to not have them. Yet... I do not use anything and my dogs do not have fleas or ticks and they are surprised... or the other big one they push.. heart worm medicine. So I had my dog that gets bitten by mosquitoes most often, At 8 years old tested and she comes back negative. I'll pass on the poison, but thanks for offering!

Last time I was in there, I saw they were offering a dog influenza vaccine. And requiring for dogs that board or get groomed there. However, my same 8 year old dog is like riding a bull if I try to trim her nails and she's been getting them done there since we moved out of the concrete jungle (city). They said that's just a vet tech appointment is not the same as the dogs who are staying all day. Anyways, it was close to $60 and a yearly thing. Last time I got the flue vaccine, last year.. I was the ONLY one in my family to catch it. Verses the usual opposite where I am the only one who doesn't catch stuff... Stress IS an absolute factor, especially chronic. Nutrition, yes!

And as noted by LG and her quote... healthy stock with exposure will respond differently than compromised stock will.

 

[Joeschooks]

Hi, hope you are enjoying BYC!

In my opinion, according to ALL the research I've done.. it will be ineffective if given to older chicks.

Way too often "employees" give very bad advice. I say ya gotta trust the research on this one.

I've seen Marek's here. I don't vaccinate. It can't be passed to the egg. Since I hope to breed for resistance, it's a risk I choose to take when chicks go out to pasture. But I know that won't be the right choice for everyone.

Good luck with your new babes!

X2. I also understand that the vaccine should be given to day old chicks. I personally don’t vaccinate (it’s not economical in my little hatched of 20 or so) and I’ve not had any problems. I really wouldn’t worry, it’s not necessary IMO.

 

[h2oratt]

I have very little experience with Marek's dz. But, often, I read posts about a back yard flock where a bird or two dies of Marek's dz., yet the rest of the flock is not affected. IMO, Marek's dz. is an opportunistic disease that affects the weakest birds in the flock. I'm going to take the time to type a paragraph from Harvey Ussery's book "The Small-Scale Poultry Flock" to give validity to my opinion. I quote Pg. 50, where he speaks of universal exposure to cocci and Marek's dz and how a healthy flock responds to those exposures:

"Marek's is a viral disease that kills more chickens than any other disease. Coccidiosis is caused by any of 9 species of protozoans and can cause weakening of growing birds, slow growth, and death. That sounds pretty scary, and the temptation is to choose vaccination by way of insurance. However, I have never had chicks vaccinated-for any disease, ever. It's interesting to note that both the Marek's virus and cocci protozoans are virtually universal-that is, to be found anywhere chickens are raised. Since my flocks have never had a problem with either, it is reasonable to assume that neither is the cause of the associated diseases (in the same way that we can say that viral organisms do not cause the cold, since they are universally present in the environment). Healthy chicks gradually exposed to cocci develop an immunity to them (just as healthy children develop immunities when challenged by exposure to normally present pathogens). The Marek's virus is called out of dormancy by stress. In contrast to the enormously highly confined (which is to say, highly stressed) flocks of the poultry industry, small home flocks-receiving normal exposure to universally ambient pathogens and managed to minimize stress-do not require vaccinations to thrive. Since there is as well a small chance of harmful reactions to vaccines, I avoid them."

My take on Marek's dz. It's everywhere. I encourage wild turkeys to visit my yard. My management style is to avoid crowding, build immunity through use of fermented feed and deep litter management. I sound like a broken record when I continually stress that a flock MUST have at least 4 s.f. in coop and 10 s.f. in run per bird. I also continually stress that a flock should never be kept on a bare soil run. Providing such housing and feed is not a matter of pampering my birds. It's a matter of doing what I know is beneficial to ensure that they have a strong immune system. Will my flock ever be infected with Marek's dz.? Possibly. But, doing everything in my power to ensure healthy immune systems will helpfully allow my flock to weather such a storm. If that situation does occur, I will pick up the broken pieces (the birds that did not succumb) and move on to breed a stronger flock. I do believe that there is such a thing as birds that have resistance to Marek's dz. Whether that resistance is wrapped up in the bird's genetic code, or minimal exposure over the years has caused overall flock immunity, only God knows!

What do you keep your birds on if not bare dirt? Shavings, deep litter? Mine free range and they have spots that are bare dirt.

 

[lazy gardener]

There's a difference between birds who are confined to a coop with a bare soil run, and birds who run across the occasional patch of bare soil. I had to give up unsupervised free range about 3 years ago due to heavy hawk predation. My birds have access to a deep litter run. My goal is to build that run up to 6". I've made great headway in that endeavor in the last few years! coop is also deep litter (no shavings)

 

[lazy gardener]

ES4L. I did the homework regarding the likelihood of my dog ever contracting heart worm last summer. After reading the information, I found that it is more likely for me to win the BIG lottery than it is for my dog to get heart worm. BTW, I've never bought a lottery ticket, yet had 3 winners in my life time. One was a ticket given to me, and the other two were found in a parking lot. I'm still holding out for the big winner... So, I guess I've gotta pay more attention when walking across a parking lot!

I had the flu vaccine last winter (required by my employer) and contracted the flu TWICE! This year, I slipped under the radar, and have been very healthy all winter, in spite of being surrounded by gunky nastiness every day that I work.

 

[BantamAshley]

I certainly hope you didn't cave to a vet's demand regarding Marek's dz. vaccination. IMO, that's unethical for a care provider whether it be animal or human care to DEMAND such and such a vaccine.

I didn’t, but I almost did. She was speaking as if I was opting against vaccinating a kid against childhood vaccinations or something. As you probably know, it’s just not the same debate, as the merrecks vaccine is far, far from perfect.
She had mentioned that it was her first week, and she looked pretty young, under 25. Instead of complaining to her superiors, I actually just called her and expressed how it felt from my end to be spoken to like a reckless person, when I was just seeking professional opinion. I kind of made her have a conversation about it. Turns out she really really didn’t know anything about the disease, how it presents... she had actually tried to tell me that if the chickens are vaccinated, they can’t be carriers. I asked her to give me her word that she would do research before advising someone else on this. As I have found absolutely no information to support most of her advice. I frankly didn’t even feel confident that she believed what she was saying.

 

[BantamAshley]

There's a difference between birds who are confined to a coop with a bare soil run, and birds who run across the occasional patch of bare soil. I had to give up unsupervised free range about 3 years ago due to heavy hawk predation. My birds have access to a deep litter run. My goal is to build that run up to 6". I've made great headway in that endeavor in the last few years! coop is also deep litter (no shavings)