MJ's little flock

[MaryJanet]

I'm terribly sorry to hear that.

It is important to note the kefir contains a lot of active yeast, Candida. Candida causes sour crop. Sour crop occurs when the Candida overgrows the normal flora in the crop. The antibiotics you are using will not kill Candida.

For me, I don't believe I would use it long term. I would be nervous using it at all while their normal flora is suppressed by antibiotics.

That's good to know.

I might try a different form of probiotics.

 

[MaryJanet]

What Bob wrote.
If I've given pro biotics at any point it has been after the antibiotic course has finished and then only for a couple of days.

I waited until after the antibiotics last time as well and I added one dessert spoon of kefir in the nightly mash, shared between the four hens, for 3-4 months. They never eat up every bite of mash, so I doubt they'd have eaten up all the kefir. I don't think anyone developed sour crop, if they did it was too mild for me to tell. But I do think it kept Janet healthier for longer.

I think that was before the pullets and red marauders arrived, but my memory is sketchy. I hope it wasn't a factor in Lorna's death. If I recall correctly, she was living indoors most of the time and was transitioning from crumble to pullet grower. So she wouldn't have had a chance to eat the hen's mash. Besides, Mark would've noticed sour crop.

 

[RoyalChick]

Sour crop requires the crop to have liquid sitting in it to develop. It doesn't happen because the chicken eats candida. Candida are naturally already present in the chicken (and in all of us).
When there is stasis in the crop or a changes in acidity/alkalinity candida can get out of control.
In humans, antibiotics change the pH (acidity/alkalinity) of the GI tract. I believe that is secondary to the antibiotic killing the bacteria naturally present as GI bacteria play a role in maintaining the pH of the GI tract.
So I don't think it is correct to say that antibiotics do not impact candida in the gut - it is just secondary to their effect on the bacteria in the gut and via the resulting change in pH.
I see no reason to believe that would be different in chickens than in people.

 

[MaryJanet]

Sour crop requires the crop to have liquid sitting in it to develop. It doesn't happen because the chicken eats candida. Candida are naturally already present in the chicken (and in all of us).
When there is stasis in the crop or a changes in acidity/alkalinity candida can get out of control.
In humans, antibiotics change the pH (acidity/alkalinity) of the GI tract. I believe that is secondary to the antibiotic killing the bacteria naturally present as GI bacteria play a role in maintaining the pH of the GI tract.
So I don't think it is correct to say that antibiotics do not impact candida in the gut - it is just secondary to their effect on the bacteria in the gut and via the resulting change in pH.
I see no reason to believe that would be different in chickens than in people.

Thanks RC. I definitely would have noticed if one of the hens wasn't pooping. I noticed it that time when Mary's hernia was blocking her gut. So now I'm even more confident they didn't develop sour crop from the kefir they ate last time. Also I don't think the kinds of grasses that block crops grow in this area. There are none in the backyard.

So, what would you recommend regarding duration of kefir for probiotics? Or should I try probiotics in a different form?

 

[RoyalChick]

Thanks RC. I definitely would have noticed if one of the hens wasn't pooping. I noticed it that time when Mary's hernia was blocking her gut. So now I'm even more confident they didn't develop sour crop from the kefir they ate last time. Also I don't think the kinds of grasses that block crops grow in this area. There are none in the backyard.

So, what would you recommend regarding duration of kefir for probiotics? Or should I try probiotics in a different form?

The role of probiotics is to replace bacteria killed by the antibiotic and any associated changes in pH.
I am not in all honesty sure whether they work because they have the same bacteria that got killed or they alter the gut pH so that the good ones can recover from the assault of the antibiotic! Either way, there is good evidence that they work.
The reason kefir is viewed as a good probiotic (even though it contains candida) is because it has a way more complex micro-organism mix than any commercially available probiotic. I mean many, many times more different types.
Logically you should start after the end of the antibiotic treatment - or on the last day - because otherwise the antibiotic will kill the bacteria you just supplied them with in the priobiotic. But some advocate starting in parallel because the antibiotics don't kill all the bacteria in the probiotic.
I haven't seen any studies on duration (I haven't looked very hard) but there are studies in people that shows it takes a couple of months to restore gut flora after antibiotics. I don't think you need to take probiotics for all that time - because as I said, I think they work by making the environment better for the normal gut bacteria, not only by replacing them directly.
So, as usual, you are needing to apply some judgement in the face of only partial evidence. Here is what I would personally do in your situation:
- Start probiotics on the last day of antibiotic treatment
- Continue them for about a week maybe 10 days
- I would probably start with a commercially available probiotic supplement and then switch over to kefir (or add in Kefir) about half way along
I can't tell you that is perfect, but I am pretty confident it isn't harmful and has a high chance of helping.

 

[MaryJanet]

The role of probiotics is to replace bacteria killed by the antibiotic and any associated changes in pH.
I am not in all honesty sure whether they work because they have the same bacteria that got killed or they alter the gut pH so that the good ones can recover from the assault of the antibiotic! Either way, there is good evidence that they work.
The reason kefir is viewed as a good probiotic (even though it contains candida) is because it has a way more complex micro-organism mix than any commercially available probiotic. I mean many, many times more different types.
Logically you should start after the end of the antibiotic treatment - or on the last day - because otherwise the antibiotic will kill the bacteria you just supplied them with in the priobiotic. But some advocate starting in parallel because the antibiotics don't kill all the bacteria in the probiotic.
I haven't seen any studies on duration (I haven't looked very hard) but there are studies in people that shows it takes a couple of months to restore gut flora after antibiotics. I don't think you need to take probiotics for all that time - because as I said, I think they work by making the environment better for the normal gut bacteria, not only by replacing them directly.
So, as usual, you are needing to apply some judgement in the face of only partial evidence. Here is what I would personally do in your situation:
- Start probiotics on the last day of antibiotic treatment
- Continue them for about a week maybe 10 days
- I would probably start with a commercially available probiotic supplement and then switch over to kefir (or add in Kefir) about half way along
I can't tell you that is perfect, but I am pretty confident it isn't harmful and has a high chance of helping.

Thank you. From backyard observations, I'm confident (but not certain) kefir supported Janet's recuperation from her last treatment. She seems to have been healthier for longer than in the past and her condition at present has been a long time escalating to the point of needing antibiotics.

 

[BY Bob]

I waited until after the antibiotics last time as well and I added one dessert spoon of kefir in the nightly mash, shared between the four hens, for 3-4 months. They never eat up every bite of mash, so I doubt they'd have eaten up all the kefir. I don't think anyone developed sour crop, if they did it was too mild for me to tell. But I do think it kept Janet healthier for longer.

I think that was before the pullets and red marauders arrived, but my memory is sketchy. I hope it wasn't a factor in Lorna's death. If I recall correctly, she was living indoors most of the time and was transitioning from crumble to pullet grower. So she wouldn't have had a chance to eat the hen's mash. Besides, Mark would've noticed sour crop.

There is no way Dr Mark missed sour crop. That was not it.

 

[MaryJanet]

There is no way Dr Mark missed sour crop. That was not it.

For sure. My mind is at rest on that point.

 

[rjohns39]

Good evening folks

 

[LozzyR]

Janet's eye infection and sneezes have gradually become serious enough for me to call Mark the vet and request a course of lincospectin. It'll start tomorrow and she has a follow up appointment Wednesday. As usual, there are no signs of infection in any of the other hens. Lincopectin seems to be a better antibiotic than for her particular bacteria than clavulox.

This time, I'll keep her on kefir for a long time afterwards. Should I keep her on it permanently?

I say her, but it would be the whole flock.

Getting a photo of her yukky eye hasn't been possible.

I’m sorry MJ, your thread dropped off my radar for some reason. I hope Janet is feeling better soon.