molting/protein?

[centrarchid]

I think the sunflower product is a fat extracted meal made from de-hulled "seeds". Then the total crude protein would approach 30%. Same product when consumed by something like a human has a digestible protein of about 23%. I would trust the nutritional value for sunflower seeds as developed for chickens of the life-stage in question rather than extrapolate from something like a horse. Problem you may run into even then is our birds living under more varied conditions may be more or less efficient at using a given foodstuff.

 

[Percheron chick]

I think that explanation for elevated values is valid as many livestock feed products are the byproduct of the food industry.

However, the feedstuff you offer your chickens is going to start out with the identical values you give other livestock. If you toss your chickens one pound of corn, it will have 1.6 Mcals. 36g of protein, X of minerals, X of vitamins, X of fiber... If you feed another pound to your heifer, it will have 1.6 Mcals, 36g of protein, X of minerals, X of vitamins, X of fiber. Nothing changed I can take the analysis values out of an equine nutrition textbook and use them in any situation. The raw data will not change. Most all this information was gathered by the cattle industry. My book credits the dairy industry for the charts. They have the deep pockets to do the research and it will have a greater impact on their profit margin. There is almost zero groundbreaking research done in poultry nutrition because they can use the initial information the cattle industry has spent millions on researching and use it at no cost. I can not extrapolate how a horse digests and uses a feed product and expect any other animal to digest and utilize it the same way but the building blocks at the start of the process are the same.

If I were to eat this same sunflower seed product, I would still have 30% protein available to me. How I use it is up to me as a human plus my individuality. The analysis is not going to change just because I ate it.

 

[centrarchid]

I think that explanation for elevated values is valid as many livestock feed products are the byproduct of the food industry.

However, the feedstuff you offer your chickens is going to start out with the identical values you give other livestock. If you toss your chickens one pound of corn, it will have 1.6 Mcals. 36g of protein, X of minerals, X of vitamins, X of fiber... If you feed another pound to your heifer, it will have 1.6 Mcals, 36g of protein, X of minerals, X of vitamins, X of fiber. Nothing changed I can take the analysis values out of an equine nutrition textbook and use them in any situation. The raw data will not change. Most all this information was gathered by the cattle industry. My book credits the dairy industry for the charts. They have the deep pockets to do the research and it will have a greater impact on their profit margin. There is almost zero groundbreaking research done in poultry nutrition because they can use the initial information the cattle industry has spent millions on researching and use it at no cost. I can not extrapolate how a horse digests and uses a feed product and expect any other animal to digest and utilize it the same way but the building blocks at the start of the process are the same.

If I were to eat this same sunflower seed product, I would still have 30% protein available to me. How I use it is up to me as a human plus my individuality. The analysis is not going to change just because I ate it.

Some what you assume above goes against basic tenants of nutrition. Animals vary greatly by lifestage and species as to how well they can use the nutrients contained in a given feedstuff. I have fish that can and will eat corn kernels but they get little or no nutritional value from it. I can eat hay but for me it is largely roughage while the same meal for a horse or more importantly a cow, the hay is much more important as a source of usable nutrients like carbohydrates, volatile fatty acids, vitamins and even protein.

 

[lazy gardener]

From my understanding of protein, the amino acids that make up a given protein source need to be in balance, or the entire amount of protein in the product can't be utilized by the animal eating that protein. Which is why it's recommended that chickens get some high quality animal protein which has a good amino acid balance. The bottom line is, chickens can use extra protein when molting. IMO, commercial chicken feed has the bare essential nutrients to keep the animal going. I agree with Centrarchid re: species specific nutrition. The human system does not function like the avian or bovine system. Without a degree in nutrition, the best we can do is offer extra protein above that in the bag of feed, from what ever source we have at hand. IMO, chickens who have the opportunity to free range and supplement their diets with animal protein are better able to self regulate their diets than those who are on a bagged only feed regimen.

 

[Izzymoon]

They do free range also, just the colder days have started so worms and other treats are getting ready for winter. Thank you all for the advice. I am enjoying reading your advices, it helps me to understand it better, this is their first true moult and I wasn't ready for it I guess.

 

[Percheron chick]

We're all in agreement that digestion and utilization of the nutrients is species specific as well as workload and age specific. That's why there is such an extensive assortment of feeds available out there and we buy them all. The point I am making is the nutrients in a given feed, starts out the same no matter who you are feeding it to. It does not matter that my mill uses the same raw feed analysis when they formulate my custom blends. It is blended and balanced for the end user.

 

[Pathfinders]

IMO, commercial chicken feed has the bare essential nutrients to keep the animal going.

I have been told that exact thing, during a very long coversation with a feed rep for Southern States. He told me that they really don't consider what smaller flocks, backyarders, and exhibition breeders need, they have to create their feeds for the egg layer and broiler production houses. Which is the minimum needed for good production from those flocks.

 

[centrarchid]

I have been told that exact thing, during a very long coversation with a feed rep for Southern States. He told me that they really don't consider what smaller flocks, backyarders, and exhibition breeders need, they have to create their feeds for the egg layer and broiler production houses. Which is the minimum needed for good production from those flocks.

The bare minimum is based on ideal conditions where the animal does not have deal with temperature extremes. During the heavy part of the molt some of my birds are thermally stressed by cold since the body feathers have greatly reduced insulator value. During coldest part of winter temperatures get so low egg production stops not matter how much feed is available. Commercial production systems fro which the formulations were developed do not allow temperatures to go so low. Extreme heat also causes issues but I do not have a good handle on how other than birds seem to eat less when it gets really hot. During extreme heat egg production also stops and sometimes weight even drops a little on adults. This occurs even with free-range birds last year during heat wave. I am pretty sure the commercial producers do a better job of managing heat stress than we do to keep egg production up.

 

[Izzymoon]

I don't feed commercial? I feed them one of the best on the market.

http://www.greenmountainfeeds.com/

http://www.greenmountainfeeds.com/products/poultry/organic-layer-pellets/

I was feeding them the Non-GMO's during the summer, which does have less protien, but the tofu made up the difference in the proteins. Now because of winter I put them back on the layer pellets, which is still organic but not necessarily GMO free.

 

[centrarchid]

I don't feed commercial? I feed them one of the best on the market.

http://www.greenmountainfeeds.com/

http://www.greenmountainfeeds.com/products/poultry/organic-layer-pellets/

I was feeding them the Non-GMO's during the summer, which does have less protien, but the tofu made up the difference in the proteins. Now because of winter I put them back on the layer pellets, which is still organic but not necessarily GMO free.

Ask Green Mountain Feeds what serves as their guidelines for meeting and exceeding the nutritional requirement for poultry. They could be making a superior product but high cost and pretty package does not mean better, especially when formulation is based exclusively on plant based products. Better also requires side by side comparisons and with commercial formulations which does include Green Mountain Feeds, they do have the option to change formulation over time in manner that does not require changes in labeling.