Mottled/Spangled Orpingtons

[Renie'sPeeps]

I think there are 4 or 5 in the US

 

[jeremy]

Quote:


Hopefully I can include myself among the Mottled breeders this year.

I also plan to outcross to my BBS line to create Blue Mottled birds, and I'd love to eventually work on Chocolate Mottled Orps too.

 

[jeremy]

Quote:
Your bird actually is not Mottled all, she is simply a mix of two colors. Crossing a Blue Orp with a Buff Orp will not produce Mottled offspring. You need the actual gene responsible for Mottling to be present in your birds. She is simply a mixed color that somewhat mimicks a spotted appearance. Though to me it appears to look more like faint barring than mottling.

 

[Earth Bird]

Thanks for clarifying this for me. But since I don't know her background. It isn't out of the question that she could have a mottling gene in her. I am just a newbie, but I have a better picture of her underside, and doesn't look like barring to my untrained eye. In any event if I decided to cross her with a blue or black mottled, what do you think I could produce.

 

[jeremy]

Thanks for clarifying this for me. But since I don't know her background. It isn't out of the question that she could have a mottling gene in her. I am just a newbie, but I have a better picture of her underside, and doesn't look like barring to my untrained eye. In any event if I decided to cross her with a blue or black mottled, what do you think I could produce.

Let me try to explain how the gene works to help you understand.

Mottling doesn't actually produce a white tip on the end of each feather, mottling is actually the absence of color from a feather. What the gene does is "push" the ground color of the bird (whether it be Black, Blue, Red, Buff, etc.) away from the tip of the feather. It is a lack of pigment. So your bird cannot be mottled on the premise that the tips of her feathers are colored alone, so it is somewhat out of the question.

The previous pictures that showed her back and less of her underside look faintly barred, but that does not mean that the barring gene is present either. Because you don't know her background there really is no way to discern what genetics are at play. Where did you get this bird? Did you buy her from someone? If so can you ask the seller for more insight into the parent birds genetic make up?

For what it's worth she does look very similar to the typical Blue X Buff crosses that I have seen pictured before. Crossing her to Blue or Black Mottled birds theoretically would give you solid Blue or Black offspring recessively carrying (not visibly showing) the mottling gene. It takes 1 copy of the gene from each parent bird for offspring to express the pattern. You would need to breed her offspring back to their hypothetical Mottled father bird to then produce visibly Mottled offspring. However, because she also has Buff genetics in her you cannot expect what I outlined just now to be 100% accurate. Buff is a complex color, with those genes who knows what she has the potential to produce. I can almost guarantee though that mottled offspring will not be included in the mix.

 

[3riverschick]

Let me try to explain how the gene works to help you understand.

Mottling doesn't actually produce a white tip on the end of each feather, mottling is actually the absence of color from a feather. What the gene does is "push" the ground color of the bird (whether it be Black, Blue, Red, Buff, etc.) away from the tip of the feather. It is a lack of pigment. So your bird cannot be mottled on the premise that the tips of her feathers are colored alone, so it is somewhat out of the question.
(snipped for brevity)
It takes 1 copy of the gene from each parent bird for offspring to express the pattern. (snipped for brevity)

================================

Hi Jeremy,
What a great explanation! I have a question about a mottled breed. In Speckled Sussex , we often see in the tip of the feather too much white. I know the ground color should be rich mahogany. The black bar should be 1/4 inch wide. The white tip is truly a "speckle", not a big spangle. I believe it is only supposed to be 1/4 t 1/3 inch long to the tip of the feather. Which brings me to my question I can't find addressed anywhere. Hoping you have input. How do me make the "speckle" smaller without losing it altogether?
Thanks,
Karen in western PA, USA/

 

[tadkerson]

Thanks for clarifying this for me. But since I don't know her background. It isn't out of the question that she could have a mottling gene in her. I am just a newbie, but I have a better picture of her underside, and doesn't look like barring to my untrained eye. In any event if I decided to cross her with a blue or black mottled, what do you think I could produce.

If you cross this bird with a blue or black you will get some birds that have a silver (white) or buff head and breast . The amount of buff or silver on the breast can vary. Buff birds carry two genes; dark brown and columbian and these two genes work together to help create a buff bird. You are getting the false spangling on the breast of the bird because of the dark brown gene and the columbain gene. Your bird also carries a gene called pattern which can be found in black/blue birds and always found in birds that have secondary patterns like spangling, lacing and penciling.

Jeremy was correct. Crossing her with a mottled bird will not produce mottling. Take the 1st generation offspring and back cross to a mottled bird. You will have to back cross again to make a solid black that is mottled. I would also add that do not back cross the second generation offspring that have white or buff on their heads. It is ok to have the pattern gene in a black or blue bird but you do not want the dark brown gene in them.

Tim

 

[Earth Bird]

Thanks Jeremy,
Now I understand

It's a lot more complicated than I imagined !

 

[Earth Bird]

Jeremy and Tim,

May I ask you?
What would you cross with a black mottled java rooster to produce a black mottled orpington?

Earth Bird

 

[jeremy]

Jeremy and Tim,

May I ask you?
What would you cross with a black mottled java rooster to produce a black mottled orpington?

Earth Bird

You could use Black Orpingtons, or Blue, or Chocolate or even Buff though it would be a bit more complicated than the others to produce Buff Mottled birds.

Anyways, crossing a Mottled parent to say a Black/Blue/Chocolate will produce all solid colored offspring, however all of the offspring with be recessively carrying the mottling gene. Some of the offspring may appear to have a few mottled feathers but after their juvenile molts they should become a solid color completely.

Once the offspring matures you have 2 options, depending on what your goal is. IF you are trying to create a Mottled Orpington then you need to select the offspring with WHITE skin, as Orpingtons are a white skinned breed. The easiest way to discern skin color is to look at the soles of a birds feet. You should also take into consideration Orpington type. So select whichever birds appear to have white skin and the best type according to the Orpington SOP and breed them together. A percentage of their offspring will then be born with 2 "copies" of the mottled gene and will appear visually Mottled into adulthood. You can then continue breeding these birds, outcrossing them to pure Orpingtons in order to produce a bird that breeds more true to the Orpington SOP. The issue with outcrossing to a Java is the yellow skin. Yellow skin is recessive to white skin and can "hide" in a bird until 2 birds are bred together who both have the gene, then it can "unexpectedly" pop up and become a real problem if you don't keep good breeding records.

Your second option would be IF you are trying to just create a pretty Mottled bird, regardless of skin color or Standards. Breed the offspring of the original cross (Java X Orpington) back to their Mottled Java father. This will produce a larger number of Mottled chicks in the next generation. However you will not be able to call these chickens pure breed Javas or Orpingtons. If you don't care about breed standards though then this is probably your best route.

ETA:

There are Mottled Orpingtons in the US now, some from imported lines and others that were created here using only Orpingtons. It may be easier to just purchase a single Mottled bird from a breeder to start your project, unless of course you don't mind breeding and culling multiple generations to produce your own line of Mottled Orpingtons. The decision is yours, good look in your efforts either way.