Munchausen by Vet Proxy

[silkiechicken]

Most vets don't know chickens... and the ones that do... know flock health management type chickens...what's wrong? Let's sacrafice a few to find out. I was dong some research on becoming a poultry vet and find most are flock management types of programs, no real avian pet types yet. And if it's a avian vet, I bet if they found what they found on your hen, but on a 10k parrot, they'd drug it up since it doesnt make food for you and lives in the house like a human. Like all medical practitioners, it's the experince that teaches them what to do and their personability that gets them their customers. Lacking either one can be a recipie for disaster. Thing is though, if you do start a course of antibiotics... please finish them. The problem is overperscription of antibiotics, the reason is because often people do not finish them so as soon as they are "better" they stop and a secondary infection of the resistant bacteria takes over and cannot be stopped. Antibiotics only help the body fight, antibiotics do not fight it alone, just attack a sub population of an infection.

 

[Enchanted Sunrise Farms]

i'm posting an update here, mainly because i am so frustrated and need to vent. Penny was on Trimeth/Sulfa Suspension and then Vetisulid Powder in her water when i could not get the syringe of meds down her throat. She was on these sulpha meds for almost three weeks. The vet did a recheck, and i felt confident that everything would be okay, as she was healthy, happy, eating, being a chicken, with no signs of any distress (which she was before the meds also). Well, the new culture showed the e-coli was totally gone (how do they do that in a chicken?) but she was still showing proteus mirabilis, although it was reduced by 50%. The actual counts had been 4+ each, then down to 2+ on the proteus, not that i know what that means. So now my vet wants to put her on Baytril for three weeks (!).

Being concerned about subjecting Penny to another round of antibiotics, i said i wanted to get a second opinion. Found another avian vet who has treated chickens and asked my vet to fax over the labs. When i went to the appointment yesterday, the vet i was supposed to see did not keep the appointment. They sent in another vet who came in carrying some big book of poultry medicine. (i suspect the other vet did not want to contradict the first vet, as they do know each other, as i found out later.) So this newbie vet does a physical exam and makes a lot of remarks in the vein of "not sure if this is normal for a chicken". She spends time referencing her book and leaving the exam room (probably to consult with the vet i should have been seeing). She finally recommends the Baytril for two weeks, even though she is unable to answer the issue of whether or not this proteus mirabilis is even a problem. And actually the only place on the web i could find any information about it that i could understand was Wikipedia which specifically states that it is not pathogenic in chickens.

So here i am, stumped. My gut tells me not to put Penny on the medication. i don't have a lot of confidence in the first vet and have NO confidence in the second one. i don't want to spend another $100 to go to another vet who doesn't know about chickens. i don't want to just find someone who tells me what i want to hear. i really want an answer. All i can think of at this point is to write to a veterinary school that specializes in poultry and ask them to interpret the labs and tell me if i should be concerned. Does anyone know of such a place? Or does anyone have any recommendations of where to write?

Through this all, Penny is acting perfectly healthy. And had i never taken her in for a routine exam, we would not be going through all this frustration.

 

[hinkjc]

It is funny that I was thinking exactly what you said at the end of your post. I would recommend finding a University near where you live and see if they have a poultry science department. They will often review labs, study the chicken and see if they can help for free..after all, it's in the name of science and education. Dig around on the net..I'm sure there is one. In PA, we have Penn State who will come right out to your home to do studies. I had no idea until we had a West Nile scare a year or so ago. It's important to learn who your resources are and this is a good place to start. I wish you the best in finding answers.

BTW..did you give Penny probiotics after her first round? If not, please do..as this will re - establish her gut flora if she does need another round. Yogurt is an excellent source for this.

Jody

 

[SpottedCrow]

This I found on a 5 second Google search:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteus_mirabilis

P. mirabilis is not pathogenic in guinea pigs or chickens. It has the distinction of being the only pathogenic organism with a virulence factor named for late rock musician Frank Zappa.

If Penny was my bird, and she's not, but I DO have a Penny also...I would forgo the antibiotics. all you're doing since she doesn't have an infection as such is to screw up her gut flora. Give her the probiotic yogurt. At work we sell a thing to make hamsters not get wet-tail that's called BeneBac and I think you could use that to help re establish the good bacteria. I think we have a bird BeneBac too...I'll look at work tomorrow.

 

[pattycake]

Yep... while I'm all for professional help when I need it (and I often do

) I've found that seeking such help in ambiguous situations often leads down a rabbit hole. Experts don't *always* know *everything.* A good dose of caution and skepticism helps the power balance, too.

If my gut said my chicken was fine, I think I'd go with that feeling.

 

[seminolewind]

Yes, I would think that the abx's killed off the e.coli, which is normal intestinal flora, and being that, protects the intestines from "bad" bacteria from getting a foot hold in there and multiplying.
If I see a vet come in with a reference book for himself, not me, its time to get up and go.
I know what you mean about having chickens long ago, and they did just fine on their own, and now, worrying about every little blip. And I think alot of society looks at chickens as worthless and expendable, way different than they feel about the pet dog!
I'm sure with some investigating, you can find someone who knows something about chickens, thru a university, or maybe a vet that does farm animals like cows. Eventually, someone's got know something.

 

[Enchanted Sunrise Farms]

Wow, thanks for all the great input. i have been making myself sick over this. On the one hand, i want to do all i can to keep her healthy and happy. On the other hand i'm receiving information from supposed professionals to do something against my better judgement.

On the probiotics, i do give my kids yogurt almost every day. Is there something else i should be giving? Last year when one of my cats was suffering from IBD, i gave her MSE Microbial Paste, a probiotic paste. i wonder if that could help? The label states it can be used in cattle, horses, sheep, goats, swine, cats and dogs. Don't see chickens listed.

Oh, and i just looked up Benebac on the internet and it looks like it comes in a formula for birds. All this natural stuff sounds so much better than antibiotics.

Will also look into local university vet schools to see if someone will look at the labs and offer an opinion. My nonprofessional opinion is that i have one healthy happy chicken here, especially since my big delivery of mealworms and crickets just arrived from rainbow mealworms.

 

[allen wranch]

Are there any livestock vets in your town ?

My vet does a fecal for $7. He can tell me if there are parasites, cocci, spirochetes etc. in the poop, and I don't have to take the chicken in.

He admits he doesn't know as much about poultry as he does about dogs, cats, horses, llamas, etc, but he has treated enough ducks, chickens, parrots, emus, etc. to be of some help. Prescribed a great drug for impacted crop that has helped me out several times, and he knows how to treat bumblefoot.

A university with a poultry science department would be best, but you might also try a vet who treats livestock.

 

[Enchanted Sunrise Farms]

You know, there should be livestock vets here. i am pretty close to some areas with horse property. i'm in Los Angeles County, so there must be everything here. Wonder what i would look under in the yellow pages?

 

[dlhunicorn]

why dont you contact your state veterinarian:
http://www.usaha.org/StateAnimalHealthOfficials.pdf