Muscovy Color help

Discussion in 'Ducks' started by Caprice_Acres, Oct 13, 2010.

  1. Caprice_Acres

    Caprice_Acres Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Jun 28, 2010
    Michigan
    I have three 'scovy ducklings that I kept, thinking they were silvers. Now I suspect that they are a blue fawn and two fawns. I've never had those colors before, so I'm not sure. the parents are full siblings, both blue pieds.

    The 'blue fawn':

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    (left)

    The two 'fawns' (I think they're both pieds) - note how faint the beige markings are, even when feathered.

    [​IMG]

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  2. Bleenie

    Bleenie Wyan-DO's

    #1 is a Blue Fawn. (drake?)
    The other 2 could be Silvers, I have a Drake that was that Beige color as a duckling and then colored in Silver, just took a while for him to get rid of that Beige. I have had a few other Silvers that hatched the Beige too but I didn't keep them until they were full grown. The beige ones threw me at first too, my very first Silver was Silver right from the start and hasnt changed in color at all! Her parents were a Black & Blue.

    I assume the strange beige coloring as babies is because of other colors being in the parents backgrounds, i could be wrong though.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2010
  3. rollyard

    rollyard Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Jan 31, 2010
    Probable outcome of two blues ie N/n+ x N/n+ =

    25% N/N = Silver
    25% N/n+ = Blue
    25% N/n+ = Blue
    25% n+/n+ = Black

    Your ducklings have also look to have inherited sex-linked recessive choc (ch), I don't know that you have auto faiogeno there? If neither blue pied adult expressed ch ie neither blue fawn, then it would have to be the drake carrying hidden ch ie heterzygous ch/Ch+ & duck Ch+/- resulting in progeny:-

    25% Ch+/Ch+ = not choc
    25% Ch+/ch = not choc
    25% Ch+/- = not choc (female)
    25% ch/- = choc (female

    Since every probable outcome of the first punnett can occur with every probable outcome of the second punnett, possible combinations are:-

    N/N, Ch+/Ch+
    N/N, Ch+/ch
    N/N, Ch+/-
    N/N, ch/-

    N/n+, Ch+/Ch+
    N/n+, Ch+/ch
    N/n+, Ch+/-
    N/n+, ch/-

    N/n+, Ch+/Ch+
    N/n+, Ch+/ch
    N/n+, Ch+/-
    N/n+, ch/-

    n+/n+, Ch+/Ch+
    n+/n+, Ch+/ch
    n+/n+, Ch+/-
    n+/n+, ch/-

    And broken down into colour:-

    N/N, Ch+/Ch+
    N/N, Ch+/ch 18.75% = Silver
    N/N, Ch+/-

    N/N, ch/- 6.25% = Lilac (females)

    N/n+, Ch+/Ch+
    N/n+, Ch+/ch
    N/n+, Ch+/-
    N/n+, Ch+/Ch+ 37.5% = Blue
    N/n+, Ch+/ch
    N/n+, Ch+/-

    N/n+, ch/-
    N/n+, ch/- 12.5% = Blue Fawn (females)

    n+/n+, Ch+/Ch+
    n+/n+, Ch+/ch 18.75% = Black
    n+/n+, Ch+/-

    n+/n+, ch/- 6.75% = 6.25% = Chocolate (females)

    So, a few Lilac & Blue Fawns just like yours. These results are dependent upon your parent birds being Blue & not Blue fawns (drake N/n+, Ch+/ch & duck N/n+, Ch+/-), & sex-linked recessive ch & not auto f involvement. As for the pied part; are they true pieds or blue birds with white wings? If both parents pure for recessive auto Duclair pied gene then all progeny should really be pied patterned. If dominant white P involvement then progeny could range from nearly solid or self coloured (maybe white on head neck) to almost all white, with patterned birds being haphazardly marked maybe (as I understand it)? Also, photos a little difficult to tell but the lighter ducklings do look to have brown/fawn on head & neck ie not straight silver, but i could have this wrong, eyes aren't what they used to be.

    Double check calculations as I don't have time & could be wrong. The top Blue fawn duckling (second pic) does look like a drake to me?

    Cheers
     
  4. Caprice_Acres

    Caprice_Acres Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Thanks guys. I'm really dense when it comes to the genetics of ducks. I do understand gentics for lots of other critters (and LOVE punnet squares).

    I'm PRETTY sure they're all hens. I should get out and take a closer look again, but I admit to not having paid much attention. Yes, they DO appear fawn which is why I asked - as ducklings I assumed they were silvers but they are now a nice but pale cream color. You can see it on the chest, on the back/tail, on the head... pictures don't do the color much justice. As I said, they are my FIRST blue fawns/fawns (or silvers, whatever they are!) that I've had hatch here.

    Their siblings were blues, blacks, lilacs, a chocolate, and some 'color crested whites'. (you can see the chocolate sibling in the 4th picture).

    The parents are both Blue pieds. Drake has more white than the hen. The hen is mostly blue with a sprinkling of white on the chest, and white head.

    The daddy:

    [​IMG]

    Momma:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I THOUGHT that the duclair pattern was a bird with a color patch on the head, a color 'saddle', and white elsewhere. Like this:

    [​IMG]

    Two doses of the duclair gene result in birds that have color on the top of their heads and nowhere else, correct? Because I get 'color crested whites' (as I call them) ALL the time. Like this (some have more color, but most of mine just have a little patch):

    [​IMG]

    Also, is Chocolate ONLY sex linked? Because I've owned a chocolate pied drake in the past, and may be getting a chocolate drake in the near future... The past chocolate drake is in no way related to this clutch, though.

    Also, what do the +/- signs mean?
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2010
  5. swheat

    swheat The Bantam Barn

    Mar 18, 2008
    Alabama
    My Coop
    I have hatched 2 of those fawn colored ducks, they have baffled me too! I have a silver duck, the possible fathers are Pied Chocolate(which can't hide a blue gene- rules him out) if these are silvers and the other drake is Pied-Lavender(very little white) which cannot hide the blue gene either- unless he is maybe "Light Lavender"
    I am correct to think a silver duck would have to have a copy of the blue gene from each parent to produce silver ?


    Ok, Still thnking on this one [​IMG]...If my Silver girl is split to Lavender then the possiblity of getting "Light Lavender" but I wouldn't think Light Lavender(which is Blue Lavender) would have a buff color...[​IMG]

    If..now if, Both my Pied Chocolate drake and Silver duck are split to Lavender - you could hatch some Lilac Cream(they would be girls- which I think mine are)- which would be within the color range...I think [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2010
  6. rollyard

    rollyard Chillin' With My Peeps

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    If all Lilacs (Buffs) female then this would be indicative of your drake carrying hidden recessive sex-linked chocolate. Both adults do look straight blue (& white). Your chocolate duckling should be female also. The Duclair pied gene is an auto recessive & apparently highly variable in its expression but generally pattern is quite even (symmetrical). They may or may not have colour on their heads (Holderread). Two doses ie d/d will result in a duclair pied bird, while one dose (D+/d) is likely to have little to no effect (according to theory). You may be breeding your whites (with pigmented crests) because your drake' pied pattern is the result of his having a single dose of dominant white as opposed to two doses of recessive duclair. I have bred "capped" whites from a pure for white drake & blue duclair pied bird in the past, but the dark cap or crest is usually lost when juvenile feathers are moulted.

    Chocolate is the only sex-linked gene for Muscovies that I am aware of. The + symbol stands for "wild-type" ie those genes normally found in the wild or original bird. The - symbol when used instead of one of the pair of alleles label like this ch/- shows that this individual is hemizygous for the choc gene ie no allelic counterpart for that choc gene on that pair of homologous chromosomes. Edited to add, & therefore female, as the small w sex chromosome doesn't have the loci (position) like the Z chromosome for choc, hence ch/-. The drake having two Z sex determining chromosomes (ZZ) can have the pair ie ch/ch.

    I have composed some info on colour genetic basics from a beginners (me) perspective. It discusses Mallard derived birds, but the principles are the same. I will have to find some time to post it, plenty of pics & diagrams to, but there doesn't always seem to be a lot of interest in this area.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2010
  7. jennifleur

    jennifleur Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Jan 14, 2015
    Temecula
    I know this is an old post but did caprice acres ever find out definitively what color the ducks were? Did it take breeding them? What did they look like as adults? I see so many speculative posts on colors, Im very curious how their stories ended.
     

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