Naked Neck/Turken Thread

[Fire Ant Farm]

OK, Kev, I have a question triggered by your mention of blue-laced wyandottes. I will be getting some chicks in the spring. Specifically, the entire purpose for the order is to get high quality German New Hampshires to breed, pure and to cross with NNs. But there is a minimum order of 20 chicks, so I have some other options to fill out the order rather than getting 20 NHs if I want, and if I plan ahead, I could push that up to 30 in a pinch (though that's a stretch) - understanding that more of any breed gives me more options for both straight-run mitigation, as well as selection of the better ones. All very high quality birds - this is a highly reputable breeder. I will definitely be getting some blue or black copper marans (sucker for the dark egg - but which would be more interesting color wise for crossing? I confess to being a sucker for anything blue, but know that blue genetics is complicated). I am considering a few of some other of the following and would be interested in your opinions as far as possibilities for interesting color from NN crosses:

Wheaten ameraucanas (or lavender ones)
Blue laced red wyandotte (SOOOOOOO GORGEOUS!!!!!)
(There are also good quality barred rocks, but I'm not so interested in those).

(I have Cream Legbars - pets, including hatchery pullets but a high quality/breeder cockerel - but they have a small body so I'm not as interested in that cross - thought the Ameraucanas would be bigger and still give me green eggs, just not the straight combs of the CLs.)

Caveat being that I do NOT intend to ever sell birds, eggs, or meat, so the need to keep any line pure or marketable is not an issue - just not interested in that, and I also think I've got a CL pullet with isolated ocular Mareks, so I'm assuming all my (vaccinated) birds are carriers. (Though eggs are technically safe, I suppose.) The source for this order does not vaccinate, but breeds for resistance, so there's also the possibility I may have some of my own "breeding for resistance" I may need to do if any fall ill. I'm aware of that risk, and am just going to suck it up and keep an eye out. Eventually, any birds on my property are going to need to be resistant.

(I AM really going to start reading up on the color genetics, but it'll take some time to get up to speed, and also reading is no substitute for experience.)

- Ant Farm

 

[Kev]

Here's Apoc - the yellow-downed bird with dark feathering that you have called wheaten.

See especially the feathers on back between the shoulders. Notice the black patterning is about the same on each feather? On my boy the non-black areas are off-white with the same areas red on Apoc? That's the clearest effect of Silver. Silver has zero effect on black pigments.. so the black areas are unaffected, with the brown/red/gold areas being plainly affected by Silver trying to make those areas white.

Here you can somewhat see the effect of Co(picture not really showing the most affected area- the breast). Apoc does not have Co while my boy does. That is why Apoc has a mostly black breast and mine does not. Co likes to push the black pigments out to the extremities- primaries, tail and neck, leaving the body more or less "clear". So that is why my boy(no name, sorry) has a light breast- he would have had a dark red or reddish breast if it weren't for Silver being present.

the presence of red areas on Apoc shows he has the Mahogany gene.. it makes the red darker but also likes to put some red areas on rooster breasts. My boy has Mahogany too, which is why there are some traces of buff/light red on his breast despite having Silver.

Basically, if you put Silver on a light buff bird, it will be solid white. There;s no "moremorered!" genes in these to counter the effects of Silver.

This boy looked just like Apoc as a chick.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

See especially the feathers on back between the shoulders. Notice the black patterning is about the same on each feather? On my boy the non-black areas are off-white with the same areas red on Apoc? That's the clearest effect of Silver. Silver has zero effect on black pigments.. so the black areas are unaffected, with the brown/red/gold areas being plainly affected by Silver trying to make those areas white.





Here you can somewhat see the effect of Co(picture not really showing the most affected area- the breast). Apoc does not have Co while my boy does. That is why Apoc has a mostly black breast and mine does not. Co likes to push the black pigments out to the extremities- primaries, tail and neck, leaving the body more or less "clear". So that is why my boy(no name, sorry) has a light breast- he would have had a dark red or reddish breast if it weren't for Silver being present.

the presence of red areas on Apoc shows he has the Mahogany gene.. it makes the red darker but also likes to put some red areas on rooster breasts. My boy has Mahogany too, which is why there are some traces of buff/light red on his breast despite having Silver.

Basically, if you put Silver on a light buff bird, it will be solid white. There;s no "moremorered!" genes in these to counter the effects of Silver.

This boy looked just like Apoc as a chick.

This is BEYOND fascinating! I need to retire and just devote all my time to chicken breeding!!! (Oh, wait - there's that whole paycheck thing... Gotta buy the chicken feed - oh, and pay the property tax...)

Apoc is not really really big on the list of boys to keep otherwise, because I just don't have enough facilities and girls to keep them all happy and he's both low on the pecking order and a tiny bit of a pest to the rest of the flock - is there anything else I should know about the Mahogany gene that would lend itself to interesting stuff in his babies? Recall that my Naked Neck pullets are three buffs with varying amounts of black accenting their feathers, one full partridge, one mostly black with some partridge showing through, and one all black. (Some NNs and some Nns, genotypically.)

I have the Naked Neck pullets (6), One lone (small!) hatchery New Hampshire that will be kept for laying for a year or so, and 5 young Speckled Sussex that will be kept separately and will need a flock rooster (leaning toward one of my four red cockerels based on earlier advice, maybe Mouse). I will have German New Hampshires and possible others as chicks next spring (see my other post), but those are in the future. I'm ok with keeping additional roosters for specific breeding goals - I want interesting colors in my flock overall. I'd love the option for some Alohas, but like other variety as well (feathers and leg color). (I'm also toying with the idea of another Ideal NN order in the future, given how happy I was with the variety and size of these.)

I want eye candy and variety painted on top of good production birds. So, I guess the only thing I'd want to avoid too much of is anything that would "shut down" or cover other patterns (am I thinking straight?)

- Ant Farm

 

[flower]

No I had to force hatch him early (maybe 12ish hours early) b/c he was shrink wrapped, not fully absorbed yolk sack, huge abd hernia, splay legs, curled toes, and extreme weakness. It was rocky at first but he came out a fighter.

You are a very good chicken mama

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

You are a very good chicken mama

I have to agree on that.

 

[Kev]

I will definitely be getting some blue or black copper marans (sucker for the dark egg - but which would be more interesting color wise for crossing? I confess to being a sucker for anything blue, but know that blue genetics is complicated). I am considering a few of some other of the following and would be interested in your opinions as far as possibilities for interesting color from NN crosses:

Wheaten ameraucanas (or lavender ones)
Blue laced red wyandotte (SOOOOOOO GORGEOUS!!!!!)
(There are also good quality barred rocks, but I'm not so interested in those).

(I have Cream Legbars - pets, including hatchery pullets but a high quality/breeder cockerel - but they have a small body so I'm not as interested in that cross - thought the Ameraucanas would be bigger and still give me green eggs, just not the straight combs of the CLs.)

- Ant Farm

Oh take your time! I got my start on genetics with several different pigeon breeds given to me at around 10-12? years old. I soon noticed there was sort of a predictable pattern to the colors and different feather traits(crest, nose crest, leg feathering etc) and eventually was able to make rough predictions with their babies and got to the point I challenged myself to create a "new" type, choosing one or two different traits from 3 or 4 separate breeds.. I succeeded at this.. but had not heard of genetics so I did not know any of the hows, whys, whats etc. Then I read the genetics chapter in high school bology and that was SUCH a powerful moment. The interest has been with me ever since but without the Internet it did take me decades and tons of hands on experience to figure out other things. That's how the 300+ flock of chickens came to happen! lol (good thing they were edible too) But now with the Internet and forums like this, the information is massively more accessible.

I think I forgot to send chicken genetics link you asked for? Just realized it at this moment, here are two excellent sites to check out:

http://kippenjungle.nl/basisEN.htm

http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html

http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/

Wanted to throw that right in the middle before I forgot again.. lol

Anyways:

Get blue-anything, if you love it! You really only need a blue or splash to introduce it into the flock. No need to get pairs, trios, whatevers. So you could do a mix of both blue and copper marans.. or just use the BLR to introduce it. Or chicken math it with all three.

I would say the Marans are best for keeping size up- ochochicas, agree/disagree? Amers and wyandottes to be honest, can be half fluff, there are some heavy ones here and there but they are essentially "feather birds" especially the wyandottes and feel light for their size when picked up. Personally the one bad thing about the wyandottes in my experience- small eggs and not exactly very productive layers or for meat. Their smallish and roundish eggs proved to be very dominant and I am struggling with this even 2nd generation away in a line that has wyandotte blood... dont like seeing such small eggs especially from big heavy pullets?! Not sure how typical the eggs are for wyandottes though. maybe it was an exception based on the two lines I had. I have to say, the birds from this can be great pet temperaments- really like the one scaleless boy from this line, he is very handleable and very mellow.

The BLRW would be absolutely the best for bringing in a maximum of new mutant color and pattern genes into your flock. They are partridge(eb) with the various genes for intense red, all the necessary genes for single lacing.. if you break them up, you will start to see spangling, double lacing, maybe pencilling, etc. There's a slight problem- wheaten likes to make light breasts on the chickens- look at wheaten amer hens for example- breast is much lighter than backs.. unfortunately this also shows on birds that have the pattern genes, they can have fantastic patterns on their backs and wings but their breasts will be "too light"- lacing reduced to mere halfmoons or almost no spangles etc.

However if the copper marans you get are truly genetically birchen(not leaky extended black) you could transfer the blrw genes onto these and make birds that are laced all over, including the tails unlike on the wyandottes(black tails). Like on laced polish.

I've not had any pure Amers. So I couldn;t make any real comments on them, production wise- however are you sure they are actually heavier than CL by a good margin? Do realize, if you introduce the blue eggs by these, you will very likely be dealing with a linkage between colored eggs and pea combs. Can be a curse or blessing, depending on whether you like the pea combs after it's mixed with single comb.. blessing as in so easy to tell which pullets are going to lay colored eggs, no need to keep them to POL or egg color selection like I have to with my single combed color eggers.

With the wheatens, they will not exactly add much color diversity especially with the NN. Both are already wheaten based, and the dominant Co being present in practially all NN will make the crosses colored and patterned much like what you have now.

Lavender is also a solid black, this would be good for example, a solid black NN or project of some kind. If you introduce lavender into your NN, you will eventually end up with some Isabel- which is both a buff and lavender bird. Very soft pastel body with a lavender grey tail. Could potentially be two projects in one but this suspiciously looks like very strong chicken math, hmmmm....

 

[Kev]

You are a very good chicken mama

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Ant Farm


I have to agree on that.

X3!

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

Oh take your time! I got my start on genetics with several different pigeon breeds given to me at around 10-12? years old. I soon noticed there was sort of a predictable pattern to the colors and different feather traits(crest, nose crest, leg feathering etc) and eventually was able to make rough predictions with their babies and got to the point I challenged myself to create a "new" type, choosing one or two different traits from 3 or 4 separate breeds.. I succeeded at this.. but had not heard of genetics so I did not know any of the hows, whys, whats etc. Then I read the genetics chapter in high school bology and that was SUCH a powerful moment. The interest has been with me ever since but without the Internet it did take me decades and tons of hands on experience to figure out other things. That's how the 300+ flock of chickens came to happen! lol (good thing they were edible too) But now with the Internet and forums like this, the information is massively more accessible.

I think I forgot to send chicken genetics link you asked for? Just realized it at this moment, here are two excellent sites to check out:

http://kippenjungle.nl/basisEN.htm

http://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html

http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/

Wanted to throw that right in the middle before I forgot again.. lol

Anyways:

Get blue-anything, if you love it! You really only need a blue or splash to introduce it into the flock. No need to get pairs, trios, whatevers. So you could do a mix of both blue and copper marans.. or just use the BLR to introduce it. Or chicken math it with all three.

I would say the Marans are best for keeping size up- ochochicas, agree/disagree? Amers and wyandottes to be honest, can be half fluff, there are some heavy ones here and there but they are essentially "feather birds" especially the wyandottes and feel light for their size when picked up. Personally the one bad thing about the wyandottes in my experience- small eggs and not exactly very productive layers or for meat. Their smallish and roundish eggs proved to be very dominant and I am struggling with this even 2nd generation away in a line that has wyandotte blood... dont like seeing such small eggs especially from big heavy pullets?! Not sure how typical the eggs are for wyandottes though. maybe it was an exception based on the two lines I had. I have to say, the birds from this can be great pet temperaments- really like the one scaleless boy from this line, he is very handleable and very mellow.

The BLRW would be absolutely the best for bringing in a maximum of new mutant color and pattern genes into your flock. They are partridge(eb) with the various genes for intense red, all the necessary genes for single lacing.. if you break them up, you will start to see spangling, double lacing, maybe pencilling, etc. There's a slight problem- wheaten likes to make light breasts on the chickens- look at wheaten amer hens for example- breast is much lighter than backs.. unfortunately this also shows on birds that have the pattern genes, they can have fantastic patterns on their backs and wings but their breasts will be "too light"- lacing reduced to mere halfmoons or almost no spangles etc.

However if the copper marans you get are truly genetically birchen(not leaky extended black) you could transfer the blrw genes onto these and make birds that are laced all over, including the tails unlike on the wyandottes(black tails). Like on laced polish.

I've not had any pure Amers. So I couldn;t make any real comments on them, production wise- however are you sure they are actually heavier than CL by a good margin? Do realize, if you introduce the blue eggs by these, you will very likely be dealing with a linkage between colored eggs and pea combs. Can be a curse or blessing, depending on whether you like the pea combs after it's mixed with single comb.. blessing as in so easy to tell which pullets are going to lay colored eggs, no need to keep them to POL or egg color selection like I have to with my single combed color eggers.

With the wheatens, they will not exactly add much color diversity especially with the NN. Both are already wheaten based, and the dominant Co being present in practially all NN will make the crosses colored and patterned much like what you have now.

Lavender is also a solid black, this would be good for example, a solid black NN or project of some kind. If you introduce lavender into your NN, you will eventually end up with some Isabel- which is both a buff and lavender bird. Very soft pastel body with a lavender grey tail. Could potentially be two projects in one but this suspiciously looks like very strong chicken math, hmmmm....

OMG, I have asked some very dangerous questions, with regard to the amount of space I have for chickens...

In all seriousness, this is very helpful in all ways! Plan was originally to get German New Hampshires and Blakc or Blue Copper Marans only, but began to think about the BLRW, and then the Lavender and Wheaten Ameraucanas. I guess I don't have to do EVERYTHING at once...

Thank you SOOOOOO much!

- Ant Farm

 

[DesertChic]

Was moving this boy to another pen, took the chance to get some pictures. He is hatchery stock from what was supposed to be pullet only order at the feed store. I'm very happy to get a hatchery stock boy though.. especially one that turned out crazy colors like this lol..

That is one gorgeous bird! Color genetics is fascinating.

 

[Fire Ant Farm]

That is one gorgeous bird! Color genetics is fascinating.

I know, right?!

I started out as "I don't care about color, just production" - but I finally figured out that what I really meant was that I didn't care about SOP "dictated" color. But I sure as heck have fun with the crazy mixes and colors that NN and their crosses offer...

- Ant Farm