Necropsies

[FutureChickenMan]

Quote:
Exactly right. When I get customers on the phone who are rude right off the bat, I hang up. People who are respectful and calm I will bend over backwards to help them. The rude ones, I give them only what I have to to get them off my back.

You get more bees with honey than vinegar.

 

[Settin'_Pretty]

The silence I was referring to was their failure to come here after being invited, and as far as your adding rudeness into the mix, I wasn't rude to them here in my post or in person, or on the phone.
I think you have an overactive imagination.

I don't think it's unreasonable for them to come here and explain what they know at this time, it could save some of these people who are spending hundreds of dollars their hard earned money.

I think when someone spends fifty or an hundred dollars on chicks they shouldn't have to also spend hundreds more to find out why they are dying.

The hatchery I am sure has received hundreds of calls, and they have a pretty good idea by those calls what is causing the problem.
They SHOULD come here and share that information.

 

[DuckLady]

I think you are taking what was said personally. Please don't.

As far as anyone coming here and addressing things, if they do, I hope it is after they have hard fact, not before. If you are looking for them to be supportive and show concern, this is not the place at this time. When you talk to them on the phone is when it is appropriate for them to ask questions and see what is going on with your chicks. Spending your money is entirely your call. I am sure McMurray is spending way more to get to the bottom of this. I personally would just tend to my chicks as best I can and check for updates from their website or through email. Let Mc Murray run the tests.

This is not their home turf and I would be frankly surprised ( yet delighted) if they came and joined up and jumped in before finding out what all there is to imform with as much detail and knowledge as they can.

 

[maineiac]

The avian vet I spoke with at length said that it is possible that some chicks may not die from AE. However, they will have chronic complications as a result and never fully recover. Additionally, any chicks not showing symptoms that have been exposed to infected chicks should show signs within no more than four weeks, but likely 10 days or less. If they do not develop symptoms then either both their parents were vaccinated or they both had been field exposed, thereby giving all offspring full immunity to the disease. As for adding new chicks to the mix now, the strong and immune will survive, the weak will be susceptible, and become infected, and should be culled from the flock. I am going to euthanize all the chicks showing symptoms, although I wish this were just a bad dream. My 75 chicks arriving this week are going to be put in with the rest of the chicks and I will pray for them.

 

[coopist]

That makes sense, maineiac. I know that if new chicks of mine were affected, and I were sure of it, I'd be thinking about culling as well. It's a practical consideration that people may have to take into account, if/when they get solid evidence that they are faced with AE. So far, I've only read of one MM customer's birds testing positive. Of course, we know the implications of that in the case of a virus of this nature, and the symptoms do line up for some folks (not the ones who are still talking about shipping stress, but the ones talking about leg paralysis and neck tremor after 10 days). So, I'd be thinking hard about culling too, if it were me. But only after good, hard evidence.

I'm sorry to hear about all of this. And I hope it is dealt with swiftly at the source. MM should be able to track down the breeder farm that the infected eggs came from...but it might take a while...

Terrielacy, is, of course, right about MM.

 

[carousel]

maineiac -
thanks for your post.
I was planning on taking my worst chick to the vet to be euthanized and sent out for a necopsy on Thursday, now I'm thinking of taking any with symptoms.

by chance did the vet mention how long a sick chick could shed virus? or how long the virus could stay stable in feces ie - in the enviornment?

Your 4 week window is very helpful.
our sick ones have been seperated for 6 days.
I will do another VERY good cleaning on Sunday when I have some time to make sure can disenfect things well and spary things down with Virkon S

I have a bit more to go........ for time. It is going to be a LONG 3 more weeks!
although....... it seems as if since the ONLY thing these chicks have been exposed to is each other? so one would have expected they were all exposed that they all woud have been exposed at a point in time..... ???? maybe one of my chicks that died right off that first 48 hours had AE and was not just chilled? I don't know.... I digress....

I plan to take a list of questions to drop of with the chicks. We have had just one breed affected so far......... they are so pretty it is sad to watch.

Our chicks will be 4 weeks old on Saturday.

Based on this information, I am going to set up another brooder in the other part of the house for my chicks coming from Ideal next week.

McMurray has been very good to work with and said they will replace/refund. I figure I might try again later in the year....... or maybe just wait until next year?

sorry a bit disjointed.
thanks again for your thoughtful post.
CS

 

[chickncrazy]

I took 5 chicks (3 polish, 1 cochin, and 1 aracauna) with the same symptoms to the NC State Vet Lab today for necropsies with the Avian Pathologist. I talked to him a few hours later and he said that his initial exam of all of the chicks organs were normal. He said they did not have rickets. He said they did not have Marek's. He will do further testing under a microscope and will have results on Monday. He will be looking at all their internal organs (pancreas, spleen, brain, spinal cord, kidneys, etc). He will look closely at the brain as that is how he will determine if it is AE. He also said it's possible he won't ever know what the problem is.
In the meantime he said that AE is highly contagious to other birds. I will post again on Monday when I have results.
My chicks hatched March 1 from McMurray....they were not vaccinated.

 

[maineiac]

Carousel,
After speaking with the vet, it became apparent that only a live chick with the virus should be brought in for testing, as they will need to look at the brain, which undergoes many significant changes rapidly after death. These changes offer obstacles for accurate results. He did not mention how long a chick would be contagious, but I read somewhere online today that the virus remains stable in feces for up to four weeks.
I will clean up my brooder one more time once I have euthanized the sick chicks, in anticipation that the new chicks will have a reasonable chance of survival. But this brings us right back to the starting dilemna. If the new chicks had parents that were exposed/immunized, then the chicks are immune. If the chicks are not immune, and become exposed when they get here, they will either contract the virus or become immune through exposure. The chicks that do not contract after exposure will be my future breeders, ensuring that my future offspring will be immune. The others will be culled.
The vaccine is too volatile for small breeders to use, and the vet advised that only large scale breeders routinely vaccinate against it. Which leads to another issue for the hatchlings from eggs that I have purchased from all over the country. I doubt any of those breeders have vaccinated for AE, so likely some of my home-hatched chicks will succumb to it as well. This may likely devastate my Serama flock, which is a breed not offered by any large scale hatcheries, therefore most likely not immune to AE. At this time, none of my Serama chicks are showing symptoms, and they were hatched 5 days prior to the MM chicks arrival. They have been living together the whole time, and the vet advised that after 18 days if they haven't contracted, they are probably not going to.

 

[MNKris]

Quote:
I talked to our VDL Poultry Vet at length here in MN, one of the highest populations of poultry in the U.S. He said the primary way a chick contracts the virus is from hen to egg, not laterally (chick to chick). Although laterally, does occur, it is not a reason to destroy all sick/healthy chicks. If it does happen laterally, it is usually when the chick is most vulnerable, during hatching or the first hours of life. Like you, my first concern was OMG, my Marans babies! He said unless they were housed together, it isn't likely, not impossible, but not likely, they will be infected. Most responsible breeders, especially commercial breeders, vaccinate all breeders at 6-8 weeks of age. They become carriers, which is a good thing, because they pass immunity onto their progeny as you said. Having AE on your property isn't an "end-all" according to him. My first thought was I am going to have a heck of a time destroying all these birds and I was, quite frankly, P.O.ed about it. He basically calmed me down, said "Let's make the diagnosis official first and do sustaining therapy in the meantime." That means easy access to water without having to move more than a few inches, easy access to food, including eyedropper feedings, vitamins and electrolytes, etc. I probably have one of the larger and older sets of affected birds (115 in the order, 10 dead, 10 in lab, about 25 more affected) from Feb. 9th and then 52 more from March 1st. Symptoms only exhibit themselves in an obvious way in very young birds. So, if your older chicks are exposed and don't show symptoms, they are now immune and will pass that immunity on, as you stated.

My experience has been that some of the Cuckoos have healed to "almost" normal, none of the Buff Rocks have healed to normal, and none of the EE have healed to normal. As far as the Blue Cochins, well, I thought a few were going to be normal and in the last 2 days, I lost all three that appeared fine including the blue that was in one of the photos I took yesterday. It was literally eating and dropped dead. None of the Partridge Cochins have healed. One is standing and walking around, with nervous system damage in her/his head/neck and a look in it's eye like it is retarded or something. It isn't normal. It chases my hand around like "the village idiot" and will eat and drink fine, it's just not "normal".

So, if we get a few more official diagnosises, we will be positive. At this point, it is just extremely suspicious. The VDL vet also made an interesting point...we have been talking about bad vaccines here regarding Marek's. It is perfectly conceivable that a breeder flock is vaccinated and the vaccine is bad - something I never thought about until he pointed that out.

For now, keep the sick chicks separated, don't mix hatchery chicks with other hatchery or personal chicks, and do the therapy to sustain. It is just a few days until we know a LOT more answers.

Edited to add: I have 10 chicks at the VDL. 3 Buff Rocks, 3 Partridge Cochins, 3 Blue Cochins and 1 EE. I couldn't bring myself to sacrifice a Cuckoo at this point, as they seem the most likely to recover.

 

[max13077]

Nice report