Need help.. Sick & lethargic

[kuntrygirl]

PeaDaddy, I am so sorry for your loss and what you are going through. I went through the same thing that you do, so I'm talking from experience when I say you are in a difficult situation. It was a rough week for me when I found one of my peas VERY sick. I have had peas only for 2 years and it was and still is a learning experience. I come to BYC to learn from those that know more than me and everyone in the Pea Section has helped me beyond belief. When I posted about my sick pea, the pea people immediately jumped on the thread and started a very aggressive discussion on what it could be and threw out suggestions. I was SO grateful for EVERYONE on the thread. Some of those same people are on this thread as well providing very useful information. Here is the link to that thread below.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...-to-vet-school-for-necropsy-will-post-results

Please do not feel bad and don't let anyone make you feel like you are not caring for your birds because you ARE. Just posting the problem shows that you are a very responsible pea owner. I am so sorry that you lost your pea but you did all that you could. You have gone above and beyond trying to save your baby. Most people do not have access to vets and some don't have the money to take their bird to a vet, so I give you a high 5 in exhausting all avenues in trying to help your baby. You are doing the right thing. I have walked in your shoes before and I know exactly what you are going through. Unfortunately, my pea died but I was able to have a necropsy done and I found out the problem. My baby had Blackhead, which is what killed it in addition to the E. coli. casportpony was the first person to make this suggestion and casportpony was right.

Every day will be a learning experience for ALL of us. All I can say is to allow this to be a learning experience and you will know what to do next time. It's hard to lose a baby especially after you know that you did the right thing in trying to save it and that is what you did. It was a big loss for me when I lost my baby but I know that we will lose babies in this process.

I hope that you do not have any more losses. I am sending good vibes your way for strength and courage to continue to do a good job with everything that you do for your animals.

What have I learned from losing my pea? Well here it is.
1. I have learned to keep my peas off of the ground or on sand for at least 6 months. I do this with my poults (turkeys). I think that turkeys and peas fall in the same category when it comes to allowing their immune system to get strong. I have found that sand is by best friend. The sand covers the ground so the babies cannot scratch the ground and scratch up any sick worms or poop from the other animals. It's a clean bedding. My adult peas have been on sand since I got them and I have not had any problems. I also keep my turkeys off of the ground and/or on sand and I have not had any problems. I let my guard down with my baby peas because they "looked" healthy I put them out in the chicken yard at 2 - 3 months old. I said to myself, "Aw, they will be ok. Nothing will happen to them.". I was so wrong. One of mine got a hold to a sick worm that had cecal worms, ate it , got sick and died. The Vet said it was like a 1 in a million case that this would happen to my pea and my pea was the "1".

2. I have learned to keep meds on hand for every and any possible illness that my peas may get in the future. I have an avian vet that my turkey sees and this vet has agreed to give me whatever meds I need for my pea without me going in for a visit. The Metro will be on hand. All thanks to the avian vet. I had called around to every vet that I could think of when my pea was sick but no one would give me the Metro. They said I needed to bring the pea in. The funny this is that NONE of them had seen a pea before. I was like, "Are you serious"? They wanted to take my money (some quoted me $300.00+) but had no experience with peas. I knew more about peas than they did. Dosage is very important and I am working with the avian vet on getting the dosage correct for the peas as it relates to their weights.

3. I have learned that I can't save them all but I can try my best which is what I did and what you are doing. We will lose some on our watch but we should feel comfort in knowing that at least we tried.

Please keep us posted on what's going on with you and your peas. I wish you all the best and I hope that you do not have to experience this again. It hurts to lose a baby after knowing you tried.

 

[casportpony]

OK I am a little confused why would a bird vet who should know that Metro is the cure for blackhead tell you to use it as a last resort?
Maybe the vet thought that the bird was sick enough to warrant Baytril. If they are septic, which they usually are right before die, Baytril would be the first line of defense.

Baytril is a very strong antibiotic and on the forums the experienced breeders will tell you to use it as a last resort.
It is very strong and IMNSHO, it should only be used when necessary.

They will tell you to use tylan 200 before baytril.
Most people don't have Baytril and Tylan is easier to get on short notice, so maybe that's part of why people recommend it.

The main killer of pea chicks is either coccidia or blackhead.
True.

Which is deadlier, blackhead in my opinion so I treat for it first. if no results then I treat for coccidia.
That's a valid plan.

I do not understand why just because one vet said to weigh the birds and shove tubes down the throat that becomes the main treatment?
One vet? My vet has told me to do it and PeaDaddy's vet talked about it. If an animal isn't eating and/or drinking, it needs to be, at a minimum, hydrated. If they are losing weight instead of gaining, they need to be fed. With birds that means subcutaneous fluids and tubing.

I have had sick birds in the past and never had to shove anything down the throat.
You're lucky. I have a little Silver Phoenix hen in my house right now. She is still alive, but would not be if I hadn't started tubing fluids to her. She weighed 740 grams on the day I found her and the next day weighed 850 grams, that's how dehydrated she was.

I lost birds when I first started and learned from it. I have never lost a pea chick to a disease since my first year of raising peafowl knock on wood. I must be doing something right.
So now you probably raise them off the ground, don't mix with chickens, whatever... Don't get me wrong, I think that is the ideal way to do it, but it doesn't help anyone that has a sick pea.

If one bird is sick then you treat the entire flock cause if one has it the chances are high that others have it as well.
That is how I do it.

I feel so sorry for you for losing your birds BUT several people told you to treat with metro and you still have not.
He is now.

Maybe you should ask your vet if they are going to replace your birds if they pass. I cannot believe for a moment that your vet told you to use the cure for blackhead as a last result? I am so angry that this doctor told you that and I would love to talk to him or her on the phone and explain how you lost your birds to bad advice.
The bird did not die because it didn't receive metronidazole that night. I would be willing to bet that the bird had a massive systemic infection.

I will tell you this, in the future keep your pea chicks off the ground til they are at least 6 months old and before placing them on the ground
This is what I will do next year.

be sure you have Corid, Metro (fish zole), wormer and an antibiotic.
If one has peachicks, they should also have metronidazole suspension, not just Fish-Zole. There is no safe way to medicate a sick 100 gram chick with a 250mg pill. I also think that one should have Tylan, Baytril, fenbendazole and Corid.

This way once they hit the ground after a week you worm them and repeat in 14 days. If they show any signs of illness you have the corid and metro. If they get a cut or infection you have an antibiotic all on hand. Unfortunately taking the ruling nothing out approach and mixing the drugs with pea chicks is a no no. I don't do it with adult birds.
Mixing Baytril and Metronidazole is done in the case of very sick birds.

Getting your birds from "reputable" breeders doe not mean your bird isn't going to get sick. Your bird will get sick whether you got it from me or your neighbor. All it takes is one bird to catch something. When one does you treat them all because peas hide the illness til the very end and the others may have it and be hiding it.
True.

I have 34 peafowl running in the same pen with 20 chickens, 5 guinea hens and 5 ducks. Knock on wood none have had blackhead or coccidia. I still have 7 pea chicks in the cage in the shed and all my birds go into the shed at night. I must be doing something right and try to give advice when I can - whether you want to follow it is up to you.

 

[casportpony]

I think you are doing the right things at this point. Keep using the Metro and as fast the others went i would keep using the Baytril for secondary issues. I have never killed any of my poultry with antibiotics or any treatment. I have lost some by failing to treat.
You really have had some very bad luck indeed. The key is to learn from our experiences. I would bet there are multiple posts in the last month that express the opinion or experience that housing peafowl with other poultry is just fine or works for them. As with all things in life, generalizations are the mother of all failures.
If you raise peafowl on the ground, in smaller areas and with other poultry or in locations where other poultry have been, you are begging for disease. It really is that simple. Young peafowl are just prone to problems. Get them to adults and they are a little easier.
Knock on wood, we have not had to deal with serious blackhead. We did treat four birds for blackhead we picked up at auction and all survived. Our primary issues with peafowl have been injury and sinus infections. We have almost zero problems with young peafowl which we attribute to raising them off the ground until they are about six months. I think regular worming is also key.
I hope the other two recover for you. If you want to feel better or take something positive out of this, I am sure that you have a healthy respect for what it takes to treat disease. I am certain you will be more "in tune" with your animals and you will have the knowledge to treat effectively.

Well said...

 

[casportpony]

I knew that this post was coming... The you're a dumb noob, making dumb noob mistakes, and it sucks that your bird died, but we told ya so... post. I shouldn't even reply to this post because it has all of the hallmarks of a troll post, but, I'll reply out of courtesy....

You need a hug. That's the first thing.

I've done the best I could with the little bit of knowledge that I've received over the past 2 days.
Your two were *very* sick and I doubt that anything could have been done to save them.

How much experience do you have with sick birds? Prior to the day before yesterday, I've had none. I did what the vet told me to do, and used the information given to me here as reference.
You've had to absorb a lot of info and you've done what you could.

Since you asked, the vet was recommended to me, and even after calling local zoos, I was not able to locate a peacock vet (zoos' vet wouldn't see my birds). The vet I went to admitted she hadn't seen a peafowl in 6 mos. I went with the first person recommended to me because time was of the essence in this situation. Is it worse that I didn't have time to vet the vet, or went to someone that I believed to be knowledgeable?
You did the right thing.

As you can tell, my post count is quite low, and I have no ability to judge who is an "experienced" breeder, and who is a backyard breeder.
Post count has nothing to do with how experienced one is.

I still haven't treated with Metro? Let's clarify. I started Metro this afternoon. In your haste to berate me on the forum for my dumb noobyness, you failed to read my updating posts.

Why would ANYTHING in my life affect you in the slightest, let alone make you angry? People make mistakes, and bad things happen to good people. It's called life. I'm doing everything in my best judgement to get my flock well. If my results aren't to your satisfaction, than by all means, fly yourself out to our farm and come wave your wand. You'll need to grab a shovel and rake, when we're not working on birds, because we also have 40 horses that need to be tended to, as well. I know it seems like a lot of work, but it's only 5 or 6 hours of labor. We can have cocktails afterwards, if you'd like. But know that I won't call you a liar or negligent if something doesn't quite work out and a bird dies.

Thanks for all of your input. In the future, please refrain from letting anything in my life make you angry. We don't know each other like that.

You can choose to believe, or not, what the vet has said. But, honestly, what reason do I have to mislead anyone when I've just lost 2 of the 4 peachicks I have, and am facing losing the other 2?

I'm going to have to pass on letting you call my vet. I value my relationships, and I'm a little hesitant to allow someone whom I've never met, or spoken with make phone calls to people whom I have professional relationships with. Thanks for the offer. We'll figure it out together.

I'll take into consideration what you've said, thanks for all of it.

 

[casportpony]

To treat for blackhead go to a fish store or aquarium and by fishzole. give 3 tablets to a gallon of water. Let all your peas drink it.
That might work if if they are drinking enough to get the proper dose, which according to the American Association of Avian Pathologists is 30mg/kg for 5 days

You should start seeing results within 3 days, 5 days tops.
In my limited experience, one should see results in no more than 3 days.

If not then treat for coccidia which id Corid powder and it would be one teaspoon per gallon for the same 3-5 days.
I do not weigh my birds. I mix the above and if they do not drink when I dip the beak into the water mixture I will use an eye dropper and slowly let the water mixture into the mouth. If your bird is sick the more stressed the faster it will go downhill. I do not shove things down the throat, by them slowly drinking it I know they are swallowing the meds.
If you have all day to dip their beaks in water, great. One thing that I read, so it must be true

, was that metronidazole is not well tolerated by birds in water due to the taste.

 

[casportpony]

Ok first I never attacked you - I attacked the vet who gave you the advice. I will tell that vet the same thing I posted LOL! I don't want you thinking I was calling you names or attacking you at all that is not me - TRUST ME it is not me LOL. I am angry that she told you that cause your bird could've been still alive had you used the metro.
The bird might have survived if treatment with metronidazole had begun at the onset of the symptoms. Should the vet have also prescribed metronidazole? Yes.

I get upset when something dies that could be prevented,
Do you really think that the bird would have lived if it had Zish-Zole tablets in it's water?

it is my flaw LOL My post wasn't to flame it was to get people to understand just because a "vet" says so isn't always right. If the vet has no experience with a peafowl they should tell you so.
You're right, vets are not perfect, and yes, the vet should have per scribed metronidazole, but it would not have helped the bird that died? No.

They should tell you to call an experienced breeder in your area and that person is not going to tell you to go away, he/she is going to help you save your birds. That person is going to give you free advice because he knows it and he/she will want to save the peafowl.
Talking to experienced breeders is a good idea, but vets have tons of literature and a much better understanding of what medications work.

How many people have scales to weigh the birds? I never weighed a bird yet.
Scales are cheap and easy to get, why not have one. What's the first thing that happens when you take an animal to the vet? They get weighed, right?

The advice on here (this forum) is golden. If you take a moment and do an advanced search on this subject you will find your answers and I bet it would be quicker then going to a vet.
Advice on BYC is not always "golden".

I have a bird vet and she told me that she never seen a peafowl and asked if I knew a breeder when my baby Emu broke it's leg, it was the first Emu she ever seen. Also "I can't believe for a moment she told you that?" was a figure of speech not calling you a liar. I was shocked that she said that to you is all. Read the two lines together instead of apart. I wish you lived closer cause I would come over and help you in a heartbeat (another figure of speech LOL). I do not mind shoveling horse poop, I use to own two myself. Instead of Cocktails I would rather go riding for a couple hours

Have you visited the UPA (United Peafowl ***.) website yet? it has a list of the common peafowl illnesses, the treatments and also has breeders listed by state. Has lots of info for free but if you want to go onto their forum you need to join.
That is a great website.

 

[casportpony]

Good question. A couple of reasons....

1. The vet prescribed Baytril last night, and the Metro was the "last resort". The bird died last night hours after being injected with the Baytril (sub-q), so the results of the Baytril was inconclusive.
I don't mean to sound insensitive, but your bird was dying while you were at the vet.

After reading here, I was convinced that if I don't try the Metro, that I've got a better than high chance of having two more dead birds.
And please, make sure that they are getting at least the recommended dose of it, which is, according to the veterinary literature I that have seen, 30mg/kg. for 5 days. Some people give more, and that might be a valid option. If your vet disagrees, have him/her refer to the AAAP manual, which I have if you need any info from it.

2. When we treat horses, we take a "rule nothing out" approach, and treat for everything. I know that these aren't horses, but until we have an idea of what is making these birds sick, my judgement says to approach this from a "rule nothing out" POV.
Whenever one of my peas or turkeys looks like it might be sick with something other that a "cold", I start worm them with fenbendazole, 50mg/kg and metronidazole.

 

[PeaDaddy]

Some of you guys should be worth your weight in gold. Incredible insight, and it is much appreciated.

Just so we can re-cap, and look at this objectively, here's where we are as of this am.

The birds were brought into house (I swore I'd never allow the horses or birds in the house...), put on a heating pad, and given both Baytril AND Metro at 6pm after being observed not wanting to eat, and being huddled next to an outdoor light.

They were placed on the heating pad, and covered in towels which they stayed in until about 10pm. They went to a ledge (unheated/uncovered) to roost for the night. They slept until I did (7am... I needed it!), and I gave them a dose of both Baytril and Metro. I weighed them before feeding
(6/20 DOB M 1738 -up from 1721 when last weighed)
(6/20 DOB F 1674 - up from 1624 when last weighed)

They were fed, and they ate well. They were not observed drinking, but water is available. We have not done sub-q hydrating or tube feeding, to this point.

They are resting next to a window, and watching outside, but active, and observing their surroundings watchfully. When I come in they peep, or vocalize.

When do we stop the Baytril? I will continue the Metro for 5 days, or a week, whichever is recommended.

We plan on getting the drugs recommended to keep on hand to prevent other occurrences.

 

[PeaDaddy]

I absolutely agree that the bird was dying when we were at the vet. Would he have lived had he been given Metro at the vet that afternoon, maybe, but I don't think he would have. He was getting worse as we sat and consulted with the vet (we talked for about 30 mins.) You don't sound insensitive at all. It's part of having animals. I'm ok with where we are at because I know that I've done everything that I could to proactively address these issues, and it's been a great learning experience.

The doses are as follows:

.5 ML Metro
2.5 ML Baytril

If we have a conflict, I'll post it here, and have her follow-up with the AAAP Manual.

We have not wormed, yet, but will add this to the line-up for this evening.

 

[Frosty]

I think I would hold off worming until you are done with the Baytril to avoid stressing the system. Did the vet tell you how long to give the Baytril? If not, I would call and ask. I think I would dose for the full course now that you started to avoid the chance of starting a strain of bacteria that is resistant to Baytril.

I apologize for not writing sooner, and want to pass my condolences on your losses. My work schedule is pretty demanding so I don't spend a lot of time here. I know you are doing all that you can do, and please let me know when you bring in a horse! It's going to happen one of these days...