Need help.. Sick & lethargic

[casportpony]

It is not quite that simple. The parasite that causes blackhead can infect many parts of poultry. The infection causes various degrees of damage which become infected. Here is a simplified example. Think of it like having a parasite that starts eating your skin. The process of eating your skin does not kill you unless a lot of skin gets eaten. It is much more likely that you get an infection in the area from the open wound that causes death or secondary damage to your system. The batter you treat the infections, the more skin you can lose before you die. The same is true internally in peafowl. The ceca and the liver are the primary targets. As they are damaged they is a much greater risk of infection from the damage than death from the damage. If you can fight those infections, it gives you time to kill the parasite.

Well that's what I thought... I was just trying to understand how a bird could be in the "advanced stages" without a secondary infection, because all of the necropsy reports I have seen have had serious secondary infections, like septicemia and systemic fungal "insert fungus here" infections. Has anyone ever seen a necropsy report that listed just blackhead and not a secondary infection? Maybe that's what I should have asked...

Or am I missing something here? Just trying to learn ;-)

 

[Bigcreekpeafowl]

Blackhead is caused by a protozoa. Which are often hard to kill and can be hard to identify while the host is alive. What I refer to advanced stage as to when the liver becomes affected.
By that time the submucosa and muscularis of the ceca are ulcerated often with lesions. The wall can perforate and peritonitis can occur. Then it will attack the liver in the final stage.
A otherwise healthy adult or young adult can die from blackhead without secondary infections.
The young often succumb to a more acute form. Maximum virulence is said to occur with coccidia present.

We had a male die about 8 years ago from Histomonas meleagridis primary, no secondary.
His liver had numerous circular lesions.

And to answer a previous question about fecal analysis. Yes I do believe they can be quite accurate.
And beneficial in discovering and identifying parasites.

 

[casportpony]

Okay, so is peritonitis is a secondary infection?

 

[casportpony]

Forgot to mention, *all* of my necropsied birds had the liver lesions, and one of my chickens had them, too, but that necropsy was done by me.

Chicken also had a necrotic, ulcerated ceca.

 

[PeaDaddy]

As Casa de Pea continues to be built.....

I got a call yesterday from the vet. I gave the bird to her frozen, which, I admit, was a mistake. It's tough putting a dead "pet" in the home refrigerator and having a 5 year old rummaging through the fridge. "Mom, what's in the bag?" Ya know?

Anyway... She did a gross dissection on the bird, so that she could learn more, and we could see if there was anything really telling about what killed the bird. This was the 2nd bird that died (6mos old male).

In the future, should we have another bird go like these did, I'll handle things differently to get a better specimen to the lab.

Her findings: Nothing out of the ordinary, but a few observations. There was a small amount of fluid around the heart, which had the bird not been frozen, would be noteworthy. She was wondering if the fluid was as a result of the freezing and thawing process. There was also fluid inside the cavity, but again; result of freezing/thawing?

Other than that, the bird looked "normal". Is there anything that should have been looked for that may have been overlooked? There were no legions on the liver, no obvious signs of distress in the intestine. There were a few small darkened areas on the liver, however.

Other than a few darkened areas, and little fluid, which may or may not have been from the freezing/thawing process, everything in the bird appeared "totally normal".

I've been meaning to take a fecal sample in to get looked at, but haven't had the time over the past few days to get one in. I'm thinking that I should have one in by the end of the week.

 

[casportpony]

As Casa de Pea continues to be built.....

I got a call yesterday from the vet. I gave the bird to her frozen, which, I admit, was a mistake. It's tough putting a dead "pet" in the home refrigerator and having a 5 year old rummaging through the fridge. "Mom, what's in the bag?" Ya know?

Anyway... She did a gross dissection on the bird, so that she could learn more, and we could see if there was anything really telling about what killed the bird. This was the 2nd bird that died (6mos old male).

In the future, should we have another bird go like these did, I'll handle things differently to get a better specimen to the lab.

Her findings: Nothing out of the ordinary, but a few observations. There was a small amount of fluid around the heart, which had the bird not been frozen, would be noteworthy. She was wondering if the fluid was as a result of the freezing and thawing process. There was also fluid inside the cavity, but again; result of freezing/thawing?
What color were the fluids?

Other than that, the bird looked "normal". Is there anything that should have been looked for that may have been overlooked? There were no legions on the liver, no obvious signs of distress in the intestine. There were a few small darkened areas on the liver, however.
The chicken I lost had a darkened area on her liver, which could have been necrotic tissue, but she also had the liver lesions and an ulcerated ceca. Did the vet check the cecal contents for cecal worms?

Other than a few darkened areas, and little fluid, which may or may not have been from the freezing/thawing process, everything in the bird appeared "totally normal".
Can cultures be done on tissues that have been frozen? That and microscopic work is usually what my pathologist does.

I've been meaning to take a fecal sample in to get looked at, but haven't had the time over the past few days to get one in. I'm thinking that I should have one in by the end of the week.
With worming and five days of metronidazole, I doubt there is anything there, but talk to your vet.

The pathologist I have worked with is Dr. Shivaprasad. Maybe your vet could send him an email, or call him. I have spoken with him many times and he's always been very helpful. He works out of the Tulare lab. http://www.cahfs.ucdavis.edu/services/lab_locations.cfm .

How are your babies doing?

 

[kuntrygirl]

As Casa de Pea continues to be built.....


I got a call yesterday from the vet. I gave the bird to her frozen, which, I admit, was a mistake. It's tough putting a dead "pet" in the home refrigerator and having a 5 year old rummaging through the fridge. "Mom, what's in the bag?" Ya know? 


Anyway... She did a gross dissection on the bird, so that she could learn more, and we could see if there was anything really telling about what killed the bird. This was the 2nd bird that died (6mos old male). 


In the future, should we have another bird go like these did, I'll handle things differently to get a better specimen to the lab. 


Her findings: Nothing out of the ordinary, but a few observations. There was a small amount of fluid around the heart, which had the bird not been frozen, would be noteworthy. She was wondering if the fluid was as a result of the freezing and thawing process. There was also fluid inside the cavity, but again; result of freezing/thawing? 


Other than that, the bird looked "normal". Is there anything that should have been looked for that may have been overlooked? There were no legions on the liver, no obvious signs of distress in the intestine. There were a few small darkened areas on the liver, however.


Other than a few darkened areas, and little fluid, which may or may not have been from the freezing/thawing process, everything in the bird appeared "totally normal". 


I've been meaning to take a fecal sample in to get looked at, but haven't had the time over the past few days to get one in. I'm thinking that I should have one in by the end of the week. 

Did she give you a hard copy report with the findings and recommendations?

 

[PeaDaddy]

The pathologist I have worked with is Dr. Shivaprasad. Maybe your vet could send him an email, or call him. I have spoken with him many times and he's always been very helpful. He works out of the Tulare lab. http://www.cahfs.ucdavis.edu/services/lab_locations.cfm .

How are your babies doing?

My vet is going to be on the forum as soon as I get her an email with the link. I'm sure she'd be highly interested in connecting with Dr. Shivaprasad.

My babies are well. Almost moved into Casa de Pea, they've had to mingle with the chickens while the aviary is being finished. They won't leave the patio... Before they were sick they wandered between the back door on the patio, and the front door. Neither work very well for us. They spend lots of time staring at us inside, or looking at their reflections in the glass. We have 4 acres! How do we get them to go find their curious side?

About the fluids... Didn't ask. Will call tomorrow.
No worms were observed.

Because I froze the bird, the results would have been skewed. Again, I'm no expert, but I would have been upset to have paid for a necropsy only to find the results inconclusive.

@Kuntry: No. She did the necropsy for no charge, and wanted to do it to learn more about the birds, especially a sick one. Basically, I donated the bird to science. WHAT killed them is generally less important than knowing how to treat them. I am confident, through this experience that I am much better prepared to address an illness upon first observation of a sick bird. What I have learned will not only buy me time in the event something needs further consultation, but potentially save a birds life without needing to go to a vet. Also, because I froze the specimen, getting accurate test results would have been difficult.