Need some advice on cross breed genetics

[Urbanfarmerkc]

I have posted a similar question on the La Fleche Thread but since that thread is slow at the best of times, I've decided it may be wise to try it in the general genetics section as well.

I bought La Fleche from Sandhill last year and although I'm happy with the breed as a whole, I'm rather disappointed about the final size. I did quite a lot of research and found that the La Fleche in this country are generally small compared to their French/European cousins.

So I decided to cross my La Fleche with my really awesome Delawares and have done so VERY successfully. I have between 100 to 150 chicks at the moment with many more on the way. What I'm needing to know is should I keep a cross rooster to breed to full blooded La Fleche hens or would I be better off breeding a full blooded La Fleche Rooster to the cross hens?

Here are a couple things that cause me to ponder...

1. I want the rooster's beautiful forked comb. The crosses of course, won't likely have this. I may be wrong though and if so I can pick a cross male who has a good comb.

2. The hens of the La Fleche lay white oblong but big eggs while the hens of the Delaware lay bigger blunt brown eggs. I will be culling my chickens prior to their laying time since I have no intention of keeping 150 chickens for long!!! The egg color of the crosses will likely be screwed up. I won't know until it is to late to reverse my decision.

I have both full blooded La Fleche as well as the crosses and I have plenty to choose from. What are your thoughts on this?

Look forward to the debate and really hope we have one cause I need some feedback.

Dave

 

[Urbanfarmerkc]

Ok, no comments so I'll see if I can entice you genetic experts with some photos... LOL

These were born on March 14th so they are about 1 month old. I put them under a broody hen cause I wanted to see how well they faired in the "real chicken world". Have NOT lost one chick so far. March was cold and snowy here btw.

Another picrture... Notice all the barring and different color patterns. The yellows are not crosses but full Delawares and the Total Blacks with black feet are full blooded La Fleche. I'm raising them together to get an idea of how well each grow next to the other. So far, the Crosses are bulking up faster than either of the full blooded counterparts.

I have been hatching chicks weekly since that time and this is a mix of ages. These chicks around the feeder are about 2 weeks old.

This guy is right at 3 weeks old. Notice the barred effect. Can't wait to see what come out of it. Yellow legs also like the momma.

This is one of my favorite photos. There are both full blooded La Fleche here as well as 4 crosses. Can you tell the difference? Notice the legs if you have questions. One of the chicks here is only 1 week old and the rest are either 2 wks or 3 wks. The three brown ones in the back are SG Dorkings.

So, what are your thoughts?

Dave

 

[Urbanfarmerkc]

Oh, I should mention, I'm getting some pretty promising "comb" action going on. I noticed some of my 3 week olds are developing the La Fleche combs... YEAH!!! That was the part I was most concerned about breeding back into the flock. Vigor is WAY up though and hatch rate for the crosses are greater than the full blood La Fleche. We'll see what I get with full blood Dels. The pic of the Dels in the top pic are from KathyfromMO. Her's are great chickens but I'll have to compare my full blood Dels to my crosses.

Dave

 

[Henk69]

The forked comb is a dominant trait. Your crosslings should not have yellow/green legs though.

If you want la fleche you should backcross to la fleche. For many bloodlines do both backcrosses (to male la fleche and female la fleche).
If the size is genetic and dominant you would reach your goal.
The alternative explanation would be hybrid vigour.

 

[Urbanfarmerkc]

Quote:
Hen69, I truly appreciate your response, I was beginning to lose hope... I have planned to backcross the La Fleche to the crosses and was going to cull down to the ones who have dark legs and the forked comb. I won't worry too much about the color at this time. I'm also culling for size and vigor. I've hatched about 200 chicks and have at least that many more before I am done. I've crossed La Fleche rooster to Delaware hen and now I'm crossing with Delaware Rooster to La Fleche Hen. I've also breed full blooded La Fleche (Delaware as well but not relevant to this post.)

What I'm wondering is it best to use a cross rooster to breed to full blooded La Fleche hen or should I lean more toward the full blooded La Fleche rooster to the crossed hens.

At this point I'm leaning toward the cross rooster to the full hens as I've read the rooster tends to carry the size traits while the hens carry the egg color traits. My only concern was the comb and losing that v shape. But if my cross babies have v shaped combs already, that should not be a problem.

Again, suggestions are strongly appreciated!

Dave

 

[Illia]

Quote:

 

[saladin]

First: The cross between a v-comb and and single comb will give you what is known as a Leaf Comb.

Second: What you are doing is called Grading. It is an age-old and respectable practise among breeders.

If you are wanting to get back to the La Fleche from where you are then you need to:

F1: discard all cockerels; keep only the pullets that show the most La Fleche type

Breed the F1 pullets back to a pure La Fleche cockbird. It helps if you can use a different cockbird each year. This will keep your genetic pool wider from the start.

It will also help if you can secure another cockbird for another line.

Keep doing this each year: breed the best pullets that show the best La Fleche type and discard the cockerels. No matter how good those cockerels may be DO NOT BE TEMPTED TO KEEP ANY OF THEM.

In the 6th to 8th generation you should have a good flock of La Fleche; if you have culled properly.

 

[Urbanfarmerkc]

That is exactly what I was looking for. I didn't know which to discard but I assumed it was either the males or females. I will discard all the males as suggested. Besides, I have several people interested in the crosses for broilers.

I started with four different La Fleche males. I did this intentionally to keep my blood lines pure and avoid the inbreeding that could occur otherwise. Got enough problems without adding that. In my first hatch, I had 4 males and then weeded down to 2 and then one. So, I have plenty pures to choose from.

I won't cull my La Fleche pures until after they have reached about 8 months so I can pick out my biggest and best. One of the roosters I kept did reach a nice big size but he was still not as big as the ones in France.

Thanks and I'll do some research on "Grading" to see if I can learn more. Does anyone know of a good guide book to use for "Grading"?

Dave

 

[saladin]

Craig Russell wrote an excellent article On Grading several years back. He will be writting another for the SPPA Summer Bulletin. It would be worth the $15 membership to get that upcoming article.

 

[Urbanfarmerkc]

Unless my membership has expired, I am already a member, I'll check it out.

Saladin, In the article I found from Mr. Russell, it said that the cross breeding happens several times. Does that mean that I'll need to breed to the Delawares again or that I can start breeding back to the La Fleche every year until they are back to the La Fleche type (he said 8 generations at most but maybe less) I was thinking, the Delaware vigor and size would transfer to the La Fleche line with this one cross. I of course was going to choose the pullets that have those characteristics that I'm wanting. I was also going to look for the dark legs but would not pursue the color so much, as the next generation should put color back to where it should be.

Combs are something I can focus on several generations from now but doesn't seem the most important at the moment. The most important thing at this point is that larger size and vigorous/strong growth the Delawares possess.


Dave