new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[RememberTheWay]

Interesting discussion to read, but I just give my chickens organic food and a variety of waste food , grains (organic scratch) , sunflower seeds, mealworms, egg shells, and oyster shell. + They search their own feed too when they free range. I give mostly chick feed now, bc I have juveniles

I don’t weigh or count. I don’t mind if its not optimised for eggs or offspring.
Only try to give no fat/sweet/salty food and not > ⅓ (guessing ) aside. My oldest lives with me for > 10 years now and is as healthy as can be. So what I do can’t be very wrong.

Precisely what I am talking about. Do what makes sense and works for you. I have way different goals in mind then what you're going for there. Which is perfectly fine.

If your happy I'm happy.

 

[Krugerrand]

I only have 3 birds and a setup for not really more than 4. They are really "pets with benefits." I'd be thrilled to have space and less predator pressure to let them free range. I'm not raising chicks that I can develop a line of more predator savvy birds. It would make my children very sad when they occasionally get lost. So, they get bags of food with occasionally health treats and occasional foraging.

I would be afraid, because of my scale, to do much of something that involves them depending on a variety. I have one girl who always defers to the others. She could easily miss out on something she needs because that could be gone before she gets to it.

 

[Perris]

chicken self selection of proper AA levels:

Dietary Selection of Lysine by the Chick.

I can't find the complete article anymore Diet Selection for Protein by Poultry

Broiler Study (BEWARE! Cobb 500s are genetically selected to have a diet sub-optimal for long term health)

Another broiler study

Methionine intake test

(But there's a contrary study from Australia suggesting broilers were able to select from various protein sources to meet their Met needs in a cafeteria environment)

these all support the idea that chickens can self-select a decent ration (which is good of course).

They do not support your contention that "there some risk that some birds might self-select a diet bad for them in the long term", which is what I was asking for.

I see a problem when you sling in UPF products like Doritos as analogous to some whole grains; so to be clear, this is your comment that needs evidence in support: "like us with Cokes, Doritos, Twinkies, and Ice cream?) Sure - and we in fact see that to some extent with certain "whole grain" feeds."

 

[Perris]

it's a big picture type of argument that numerous factors must be taken into account. Like cost of start up, infrastructure, cost of maintenance, number of birds, available products, type of bird and stage of development (meat, dual, layer, production, heritage, commercial, starter, grower, developer, finisher, mature, etc) convenience, time it takes to implement and or gather supplies

it boils down to one of two different directions you can go: high input/ output/ stress etc. or low input/ output/ stress etc.. Some people are finding they are better off financially as well as physically and emotionally by following the second path.

 

[Perris]

Are you seriously trying to say that isn't a risk at all?

Yes, if the resources available to them do actually provide everything they need in one way or another, and they are free to find and eat them. Almost all wild birds manage it almost all the time, and are healthy enough to outlast temporary hiccups in availability. They do not need every nutrient every meal every day.

 

[Perris]

the whole grain feeds

I think I've found the source of confusion. When I talk about whole grains, I am talking about them sourced individually, not as a commercial sack of feed (labelled whole grain or otherwise).

I have no view on a bag of "whole grain feed" as an option on the shelves of the feed store - anything could be in them. They might not even be whole by the time they get in the sack, given the idiocy of many labelling laws in many places.

The key difference is whether or not the grain has been processed in such a way as to break the berry. Whole grain, for me, means unbroken grains. And I mix and match different whole grains at home. It's really easy, once you've sourced the grains.

 

[Perris]

https://stablemanagement.com/articles/horse-gaining-weight-free-choice-forage-isnt-working-53262/

I'm not going to spend all day looking for references but anyone else is more then welcome to search for outcomes that are in conflict with what you advocate for. I know they are out there because I've read of terrible outcomes especially with free choice single minerals. I know that goats can certainly eat themselves to death. But the above link even though it does advocate for free choice feed in horses clearly outlines that it isn't an end all be all solution and that there are still instances of horses eating themselves obese and that other factors must be taken into account.

There are always two sides to any argument. Always. Nothing is strictly black or white. Including free choice feeding no matter the species.

Find articles that are not selling something or someone if you want to make real progress on this.

 

[BDutch]

Amino Acid levels. I get tired of typing it. Also commonly abrieviate METhionine, LYSine, THREonine, TRYPtophan, Calcium, Phosphorus, and Crude Protein

I understand people don’t like typing too much. But you really should add an * if you are using abbreviations many people don’t understand , and add ^^ the above post or a link to it in your explanation/the discussion. If you bookmark it you can add this info easily with copy - paste.

The only official abbreviations above are C and P. I would grasp those in the right context and maybe a few others too. But not all of them. And my memory is not that strong that I remember them all next month. Other people may have other knowledge. But I don’t think my mind/memory works/is exceptionally.

Personnally I often get annoyed with all the abbreviations people use here on BYC. For chicken breeds I don’t know very well, for states I’m not familiar with, for relatives other than MDH, etc. I tend to skip reading /grasping if it gets too complicated. But often would have preferred to read the reply or explanation without abbreviations. On the other hand I use some abbreviations as well, because everyone here seems to think thats the way to go.

KR, BDutch
From NL, EU
Having bA juveniles, bD hens and 1 bRIR.

 

[Perris]

I put in to my poultry, what I want to put into my and my customers bodies, because if I don't, it may not be in the end product at all.

eggs can be much more nutrients dense then store eggs BUT the key is, the nutrients must be provided for in the first place, and in forms that the hen will not only eat, but can also convert into nutritional content inside her egg.

Absolutely. You are what you eat, and what you eat, is what it ate. You might want to look into regenerative agriculture. Modern farming practices have diminished the nutritional quality of the crops grown by it. Micronutrients in particular have suffered, and sometimes are significantly lower than the figures reported as USDA reference values (which feed manufacturers typically just copy, assuming they are accurate). See Declining Fruit and Vegetable Nutrient Composition, Davis 2009 https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/view/journals/hortsci/44/1/article-p15.xml

most of not all nutrients work in tandem or multiples

Exactly. And is why badly designed reductionist experiments deliver poor results.

I want those products to be whole, unaltered foods, that truly are nutrient dense. But they also must be affordable.

It is possible to do both if you go down the low input route.

 

[BDutch]

… Whole grain, for me, means unbroken grains. And I mix and match different whole grains at home. It's really easy, once you've sourced the grains.

Yes, but the feed company does it for me. They make my life easier.
The ingredients of my local brand (AR).

Wheat, broken corn, millet, sunflower seeds and mussel shells

Only the corn and mussel shells are broken.
The brand AR : A stands for Agriculture , the R for the Rhine harbour in my town.