new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[RememberTheWay]

In theory, because individual birds will have slightly differing nutritional needs, offering them sufficient variation that they self-balance their own nutritional intakes will result in more optimum meeting of their needs. Assuming, of course, that the ingredients offered are adequate to that task.

As opposed to offering a well formulated but otherwise "generic" one-size-fits-all All Flock type formulation intended to meet or exceed the need of almost all birds at almost all life stages (together with free choice calcium, of course).

Is it more cost effective? Almost certainly not. Does it have the convenience of pouring out a bag? again, no. Is there some risk that some birds might self-select a diet bad for them in the long term (like us with Cokes, Doritos, Twinkies, and Ice cream?) Sure - and we in fact see that to some extent with certain "whole grain" feeds.

I certainly don't feed my birds a dozen plus options and trust them to fill their plates appropriately. I've read the research, I know it *can* work. Is it a workable solution for me? Nope. Does the research support the belief that one can assume their birds are self-selecting to meet their needs simply by turning them loose? Also nope.

But I readily concede that a good bag of pre-mix is not the "only workable way".

Agreed. But I don't think anyone is advocating for premix being the only solution nor does anyone say it's even optimal. Of course their are better options. There always are. I'm researching nutrition now and changing my program but the fact is it's a big picture type of argument that numerous factors must be taken into account. Like cost of start up, infrastructure, cost of maintenance, number of birds, available products, type of bird and stage of development (meat, dual, layer, production, heritage, commercial, starter, grower, developer, finisher, mature, etc) convenience, time it takes to implement and or gather supplies. For me personally I don't have a local mill that 1- carries everything I want or need and 2- some of the ingredients they do carry are inflated in price and I can find them cheaper at another store, 3- driving between said stores is added money- is it worth it? If I had a store that I could get everything I needed at one place for everything at reasonable price then I might consider different options but that is not my situation as it stands and I would stand to reason others are in the same exact boat too. Not to mention the fact that complicated feed regimens also make it incredibly difficult for anyone else to do your feed chores.

 

[RememberTheWay]

would you like to supply some evidence (proper research, not anecdotes please) to support this?

Are you seriously trying to say that isn't a risk at all?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

would you like to supply some evidence (proper research, not anecdotes please) to support this?

I can provide plenty of anecdote, which is specific to whole grain feeds, only adjacent to the point you are illustrating in this thread. Because the whole grain feeds don't pretend to offer adequate choice. Each included grain is intended to be part of the complete feed (which is mostly whole grains, to which some vitamin pre-mix has been added).

More generally, there's a study - I'll find it - showing that while chickens are pretty decent (given choice) at meeting their crude protein needs, they aren't nearly as good at balancing their AA intake.

Reserve this space. I didn't save it to favorites, going to take some time to remember the key words I found it under.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Agreed. But I don't think anyone is advocating for premix being the only solution nor does anyone say it's even optimal. Of course their are better options. There always are. I'm researching nutrition now and changing my program but the fact is it's a big picture type of argument that numerous factors must be taken into account. Like cost of start up, infrastructure, cost of maintenance, number of birds, available products, type of bird and stage of development (meat, dual, layer, production, heritage, commercial, starter, grower, developer, finisher, mature, etc) convenience, time it takes to implement and or gather supplies. For me personally I don't have a local mill that 1- carries everything I want or need and 2- some of the ingredients they do carry are inflated in price and I can find them cheaper at another store, 3- driving between said stores is added money- is it worth it? If I had a store that I could get everything I needed at one place for everything at reasonable price then I might consider different options but that is not my situation as it stands and I would stand to reason others are in the same exact boat too. Not to mention the fact that complicated feed regimens also make it incredibly difficult for anyone else to do your feed chores.

I applaud your cost benefit analysis. I do the same. at some point, one accepts "good enough".

 

[RememberTheWay]

would you like to supply some evidence (proper research, not anecdotes please) to support this?

https://stablemanagement.com/articles/horse-gaining-weight-free-choice-forage-isnt-working-53262/

I'm not going to spend all day looking for references but anyone else is more then welcome to search for outcomes that are in conflict with what you advocate for. I know they are out there because I've read of terrible outcomes especially with free choice single minerals. I know that goats can certainly eat themselves to death. But the above link even though it does advocate for free choice feed in horses clearly outlines that it isn't an end all be all solution and that there are still instances of horses eating themselves obese and that other factors must be taken into account.

There are always two sides to any argument. Always. Nothing is strictly black or white. Including free choice feeding no matter the species.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

and @RememberTheWay here's a (relatively) new study (I hadn't read this one before) of someone trying to "split the difference". Only involves 160 birds, and I'm not convinced it says what they claim it does, but I'll let you judge for yourself. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1056617119302193

In essence, they took a ration that was half corn, and took the corn out. One group of chicks got the regular ration. The other group of chicks got to choose between feeders containing only corn, and feeders with the protein/vitamin mix only. Then compared the results. Its also relatively short time scale, but again, interesting reading.

 

[RoyalChick]

Agreed. But I don't think anyone is advocating for premix being the only solution nor does anyone say it's even optimal. Of course there are better options. There always are.

Actually, that is exactly what was happening.
When @Perris started this thread there were some extremely assertive promoters of the ‘commercial premix feed and only commercial premix feed’ doctrine.
To the extent that some newcomers felt they were doing harm to their chickens if they offered a few table scraps.
As a relative newcomer but with a reasonably solid grounding in biology, that defied logic to me.
I am very grateful to @Perris and @U_Stormcrow for bringing some more fact based insights to the topic.
They don’t always agree with each other, and I don’t do exactly what either of them do in caring for my flock, but I have learned a lot from both of them and feel much better equipped to make the right decisions for me, and for the welfare of my flock.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I am very grateful to @Perris and @U_Stormcrow for bringing some more fact based insights to the topic.
They don’t always agree with each other, and I don’t do exactly what either of them do in caring for my flock, but I have learned a lot from both of them and feel much better equipped to make the right decisions for me, and for the welfare of my flock.

[Metaphysical piece of real estate], I don't even feed my own birds the way I recommend most feed theirs - something I try to be forthright about. But I like to pretend that I understand enough that I'm making an intelligent cost/benefit analysis.

 

[RememberTheWay]

I applaud your cost benefit analysis. I do the same. at some point, one accepts "good enough".

It's seriously making my head spin. Lol. I'm constantly referring back to my "optimal nutrient level list for stages and type" and comparing feed analysis, emailing companies both actual feed companys and reaching out to all my feed stores within driving distance AND looking for more obscure companies that don't have brick and mortar stores but do offer weekly drop points. Then there is the added problem of "regular feed, Non GmO, or Organic" and before I did my research I would of one hundred percent believed that non GMO and organic would ALWAYS be the better options. Fact of the matter is when I actually crunch the numbers on the analysis tag (not even talking about the leap in price here) they are usually WAY inferior feeds concerning nutrition. Which is startling to say the very least and leaves me in quite a conundrum. Only way around it is to mix your own which Ive been doing for a year and fermenting and I gotta say the time involved vs benefits is looking quite dismal especially when if I want to make an exceptional recipe it's going to cost me $300 to start up and significant amounts when I have to replace the vitamin supplements and fishmeal bags each time. It just isn't a simple answer. Right now I'm looking at kalmbach feeds because I have a supplier that has reasonable prices for them. I don't like any of kalmbachs products for regular layers. The only bags that I would consider would be some of the meat bird starters and their show lines. They also have some supplements I might consider.

 

[RememberTheWay]

Actually, that is exactly what was happening.
When @Perris started this thread there were some extremely assertive promoters of the ‘commercial premix feed and only commercial premix feed’ doctrine.
To the extent that some newcomers felt they were doing harm to their chickens if they offered a few table scraps.
As a relative newcomer but with a reasonably solid grounding in biology, that defied logic to me.
I am very grateful to @Perris and @U_Stormcrow for bringing some more fact based insights to the topic.
They don’t always agree with each other, and I don’t do exactly what either of them do in caring for my flock, but I have learned a lot from both of them and feel much better equipped to make the right decisions for me, and for the welfare of my flock.

Yes- I agree. All of the opinions should be brought to the table so that consumers can make EDUCATED decisions and not just swallow down whatever a feed company says is so.

Case in point , Purina's/TSC's, feed debacle that is still ongoing. Personally I did see a significant drop in production and performance on their feeds. But I don't subscribe to the wild theories. Upon educating myself concerning my birds ACTUAL nutritional needs for type and stage, and then analyzing their feed analysis it became startling obvious I had been seriously under feeding my birds concerning some very important nutrients. Period. That is why I don't use their feeds any more. They are nutritionally inferior in my opinion. But I would never have known that had I never educated myself. It is the widely accepted assumption that these companies are providing complete feeds and sadly that is not a safe assumption, in my opinion.

More importantly - I think that many factors need to be considered when deciding what is right for individual Flocks. It isn't a one size fits all because everyone's birds and situations are unique as well as resources and intentions with their birds. Someone like myself who is growing dual purpose meat birds for processing and breeders has very different nutritional requirements to meet then say a small backyard flock manager who thinks eggs are just a nice bonus.