new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[RoyalChick]

Yes- I agree. All of the opinions should be brought to the table so that consumers can make EDUCATED decisions and not just swallow down whatever a feed company says is so.

Case in point , Purina's/TSC's, feed debacle that is still ongoing. Personally I did see a significant drop in production and performance on their feeds. But I don't subscribe to the wild theories. Upon educating myself concerning my birds ACTUAL nutritional needs for type and stage, and then analyzing their feed analysis it became startling obvious I had been seriously under feeding my birds concerning some very important nutrients. Period. That is why I don't use their feeds any more. They are nutritionally inferior in my opinion. But I would never have known that had I never educated myself. It is the widely accepted assumption that these companies are providing complet feeds and sadly that is not a same assumption in my opinion.

More importantly - I think that many factors need to be considered when deciding what is right for individual Flocks. It isn't a one size fits all because everyones birds and situations are unique as well as resources and intentions with their birds. Someone like myself who is growing dual purpose meat birds for processing and breeders has very different nutritional requirements to meet then say a small backyard flock manager who thinks eggs are just a nice bonus.

Agree.
And even amongst the hobbyists there is a difference between those whose flocks completely free range and those that are confined to a coop with a small run.
Or in one flock between seasons.
Mine are not fully free range but have a large area enclosed by an electric fence. The plant life is very diverse and they seem to have strong likes and dislikes that vary from spring to summer. Right now catching crickets seems to be very popular. In a couple of months it will be almost completely bare and often frozen.
The mice are a constant and baby mice are always a delicacy.

 

[RoyalChick]

[Metaphysical piece of real estate], I don't even feed my own birds the way I recommend most feed theirs - something I try to be forthright about. But I like to pretend that I understand enough that I'm making an intelligent cost/benefit analysis.

As my Dad always told me ‘do what I say, not what I do’!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Here goes

As my Dad always told me ‘do what I say, not what I do’!

Always happy to explain what I do, why I do it, what risks I know myself to be taking, what I do to control those risks, and why its the wrong method for most.

And, chicken self selection of proper AA levels:

Dietary Selection of Lysine by the Chick.

I can't find the complete article anymore Diet Selection for Protein by Poultry

Broiler Study (BEWARE! Cobb 500s are genetically selected to have a diet sub-optimal for long term health)

Another broiler study

Methionine intake test

(But there's a contrary study from Australia suggesting broilers were able to select from various protein sources to meet their Met needs in a cafeteria environment)

 

[RememberTheWay]

Agree.
And even amongst the hobbyists there is a difference between those whose flocks completely free range and those that are confined to a coop with a small run.
Or in one flock between seasons.
Mine are not fully free range but have a large area enclosed by an electric fence. The plant life is very diverse and they seem to have strong likes and dislikes that vary from spring to summer. Right now catching crickets seems to be very popular. In a couple of months it will be almost completely bare and often frozen.
The mice are a constant and baby mice are always a delicacy.!

Exactly! I think this point is mostly ignored when people recommend feed recommendations and it's a very important factor to consider.

Plus- for me personally - I need to know my birds are taking in adequate nutrition to meet my performance needs. Simply relying on "they free range sometimes therefore they are getting what they need" is just not enough for me. There are way too many variables. My birds need to perform and I put a lot of time and energy into tracking that they're doing so.

I track weights, age of maturity, production, feathering rate, time it takes to go from onset of lay and pullet eggs to viable breeder size mature eggs. And SO much more. I have too much invested into my lines to simply leave the nutrition up to chance. But even with that said, I am well aware that my situation is vastly different then most.

Before I had meat birds and breeders, and hatched and did table and hatching eggs for profit, I had a much different goal in mind and feeding regimen. I am a permaculture designer, so working with circular no waste systems are a passion of mine and poultry are key to many of those systems right here on my property. I raise birds on pasture in rotation in mobile units and my retired hens are used to fertilize and turn compost. Everyone has a job and a part to play here. I am looking at my personal situation through the lense of - "I will give my birds access to pasture and fresh pasture often but the feed and supplements they have available are exceptional nutrition so that whatever they are not getting from pasture for whatever reason (not available, seasonal changes, etc) is still available to them through what I am providing". The pasture, to me isn't the entree in their diet-( even though it might be)- I more look at it like I am providing them a balanced complete (truly) entree and the pasture is the bonus. Does that make sense at all?

I also have to keep in mind- because my business is based on the poultry what my competitors are doing and what they are charging for their end products. Because at the end of the day, the price of my product does matter because if it is significantly higher then others due to more inputs and costs on my part, I simply will lose business because they chose the cheaper alternative. Even if it isn't the best nutritional option available. I put in to my poultry, what I want to put into my and my customers bodies, because if I don't, it may not be in the end product at all.

Example - Everyone thinks that Farm Fresh Eggs are better then store bought. But honestly this simply isn't always the case. Nor are all farm fresh eggs created equally. If the nutrition isn't available for the hen to convert into the egg, an egg is still produced. And it looks exactly like a better quality, more nutrient dense one. You can't look at them and tell.

You also can't go off of the color of the yolk. Orange yolk does not equal more nutrients these days, sadly. What it does mean, in most occasions is that the hen was fed a diet higher in Carotenoids. Usually marigold petals. Which is perfectly fine and a natural ingredient. No argument there. But it also creates a false sense of quality. Due to the fact that I can feed a nutritionally inferior feed in all aspects, add in marigold, and now the yolk is darker, while in truth that egg is inferior in everyway except it has a orange yolk. Take that egg and crack it next to one that the hen was fed a nutritionally sound diet, then ask someone to tell you by sight which is the better quality egg. They look exactly the same, but they are not the same. This is a problem. Table eggs can be much more nutrients dense then store eggs BUT the key is, the nutrients must be provided for in the first place, and in forms that the hen will not only eat, but can also convert into nutritional content inside her egg. Supplements are not created equally. If it's in a form that isn't bioavailable then it's essentially useless. People don't know this. Just because the bag says it has "insert any vitamin/mineral/nutrient" here doesn't mean that the said nutrient actually is bioavailable or usable to the hen at all. This applies to human foods too, btw. And to complicate it even further most of not all nutrients work in tandem or multiples. Meaning in order for something to be utilized it must also have it partner nutrient or several other nutrients for conversion and uptake to occur. Examples of this are: Iron and Vitamin C, Calcium+VitD3+ Magnesium, the fat soluble vitamins A D E and K, or selenium and vitamin. They are literally endless. And they also work in the opposite way some nutrients effectively block the absorption of other nutrients. Example- calcium, tannins, and animal proteins either block iron Absorption or effectively bind to iron and cause it to be carried out of the body in waste material instead of absorbed and used. Many others do similar things. This is a very complicated issue. And is compounded even further when we talk about synthetic nutrition vs whole food nutrition.

I am very passionate about quality over quantity. I want to know what I am consuming. I want my customers to know what they are buying and consuming. I want those products to be whole, unaltered foods, that truly are nutrient dense. But they also must be affordable. What good is a nutritionally sound product if no one but a select few can afford it? Answer is- it's useless. My aim is to be exceptional in every way while also remaining affordable. Integrity, strong principles, and customer care are the back bone of my way of life and business. They are one in the same. It is also very important to me for my chicks and hatching eggs, as a breeder (and not a food producer just one more hat I wear), to be exceptional quality at affordable prices. I don't get on the band wagon of charging extravagant prices for quality breeder birds. Period. I don't agree with it. And that's my stance. I believe at the end of the day, they are all chickens and they have a purpose. Meat, eggs, companions. Period. $30 for a hen is reasonable. 100+ for one is not. $45 dollars for hatching eggs from sound quality birds is reasonable. $120-200 per dozen is not. Quality Day old chicks costing between$5-$15 depending on breed and sex is absolutely reasonable. Day old chicks costing $25- 45+ per chick isn't reasonable and makes quality birds inaccessible to most. Standards being hid behind paywalls by breed clubs, isn't in the breeds or the public's best interest, in my opinion, of course. Obviously, I am not in the majority on these topics either. Lol. That's perfectly okay with me. I've always stood in the gap, been minority, and danced to the beat of my own drum. I'm okay with that too

Btw- my apologies. I have somehow gotten off in the weeds over here concerning this topic. Lol. Feel free to wrangle me back in at your convenience!

 

[RememberTheWay]

proper AA levels

Can you clarify what "AA levels" actually means, please? Never seen that abbreviation used before....

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Can you clarify what "AA levels" actually means, please? Never seen that abbreviation used before....

Amino Acid levels. I get tired of typing it. Also commonly abrieviate METhionine, LYSine, THREonine, TRYPtophan, Calcium, Phosphorus, and Crude Protein

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Exactly! I think this point is mostly ignored when people recommend feed recommendations and it's a very important factor to consider.

Plus- for me personally - I need to know my birds are taking in adequate nutrition to meet my performance needs. Simply relying on "they free range sometimes therefore they are getting what they need" is just not enough for me. There are way too many variables. My birds need to perform and I put a lot of time and energy into tracking that they're doing so.

I track weights, age of maturity, production, feathering rate, time it takes to go from onset of lay and pullet eggs to viable breeder size mature eggs. And SO much more. I have too much invested into my lines to simply leave the nutrition up to chance. But even with that said, I am well aware that my situation is vastly different then most.

Before I had meat birds and breeders, and hatched and did table and hatching eggs for profit, I had a much different goal in mind and feeding regimen. I am a permaculture designer, so working with circular no waste systems are a passion of mine and poultry are key to many of those systems right here on my property. I raise birds on pasture in rotation in mobile units and my retired hens are used to fertilize and turn compost. Everyone has a job and a part to play here. I am looking at my personal situation through the lense of - "I will give my birds access to pasture and fresh pasture often but the feed and supplements they have available are exceptional nutrition so that whatever they are not getting from pasture for whatever reason (not available, seasonal changes, etc) is still available to them through what I am providing". The pasture, to me isn't the entree in their diet-( even though it might be)- I more look at it like I am providing them a balanced complete (truly) entree and the pasture is the bonus. Does that make sense at all?

I also have to keep in mind- because my business is based on the poultry what my competitors are doing and what they are charging for their end products. Because at the end of the day, the price of my product does matter because if it is significantly higher then others due to more inputs and costs on my part, I simply will lose business because they chose the cheaper alternative. Even if it isn't the best nutritional option available. I put in to my poultry, what I want to put into my and my customers bodies, because if I don't, it may not be in the end product at all.

Example - Everyone thinks that Farm Fresh Eggs are better then store bought. But honestly this simply isn't always the case. Nor are all farm fresh eggs created equally. If the nutrition isn't available for the hen to convert into the egg, an egg is still produced. And it looks exactly like a better quality, more nutrient dense one. You can't look at them and tell.

You also can't go off of the color of the yolk. Orange yolk does not equal more nutrients these days, sadly. What it does mean, in most occasions is that the hen was fed a diet higher in Carotenoids. Usually marigold petals. Which is perfectly fine and a natural ingredient. No argument there. But it also creates a false sense of quality. Due to the fact that I can feed a nutritionally inferior feed in all aspects, add in marigold, and now the yolk is darker, while in truth that egg is inferior in everyway except it has a orange yolk. Take that egg and crack it next to one that the hen was fed a nutritionally sound diet, then ask someone to tell you by sight which is the better quality egg. They look exactly the same, but they are not the same. This is a problem. Table eggs can be much more nutrients dense then store eggs BUT the key is, the nutrients must be provided for in the first place, and in forms that the hen will not only eat, but can also convert into nutritional content inside her egg. Supplements are not created equally. If it's in a form that isn't bioavailable then it's essentially useless. People don't know this. Just because the bag says it has "insert any vitamin/mineral/nutrient" here doesn't mean that the said nutrient actually is bioavailable or usable to the hen at all. This applies to human foods too, btw. And to complicate it even further most of not all nutrients work in tandem or multiples. Meaning in order for something to be utilized it must also have it partner nutrient or several other nutrients for conversion and uptake to occur. Examples of this are: Iron and Vitamin C, Calcium+VitD3+ Magnesium, the fat soluble vitamins A D E and K, or selenium and vitamin. They are literally endless. And they also work in the opposite way some nutrients effectively block the absorption of other nutrients. Example- calcium, tannins, and animal proteins either block iron Absorption or effectively bind to iron and cause it to be carried out of the body in waste material instead of absorbed and used. Many others do similar things. This is a very complicated issue. And is compounded even further when we talk about synthetic nutrition vs whole food nutrition.

I am very passionate about quality over quantity. I want to know what I am consuming. I want my customers to know what they are buying and consuming. I want those products to be whole, unaltered foods, that truly are nutrient dense. But they also must be affordable. What good is a nutritionally sound product if no one but a select few can afford it? Answer is- it's useless. My aim is to be exceptional in every way while also remaining affordable. Integrity, strong principles, and customer care are the back bone of my way of life and business. They are one in the same. It is also very important to me for my chicks and hatching eggs, as a breeder (and not a food producer just one more hat I wear), to be exceptional quality at affordable prices. I don't get on the band wagon of charging extravagant prices for quality breeder birds. Period. I don't agree with it. And that's my stance. I believe at the end of the day, they are all chickens and they have a purpose. Meat, eggs, companions. Period. $30 for a hen is reasonable. 100+ for one is not. $45 dollars for hatching eggs from sound quality birds is reasonable. $120-200 per dozen is not. Quality Day old chicks costing between$5-$15 depending on breed and sex is absolutely reasonable. Day old chicks costing $25- 45+ per chick isn't reasonable and makes quality birds inaccessible to most. Standards being hid behind paywalls by breed clubs, isn't in the breeds or the public's best interest, in my opinion, of course. Obviously, I am not in the majority on these topics either. Lol. That's perfectly okay with me. I've always stood in the gap, been minority, and danced to the beat of my own drum. I'm okay with that too

Btw- my apologies. I have somehow gotten off in the weeds over here concerning this topic. Lol. Feel free to wrangle me back in at your convenience!

All good. Completely understand. I'm similar, though my record keeping quickly fell by the wayside, and I'm not a commercial producer. I have a "culling project" which started w/ some seriously inferior stock.

but yes, we've both took this thread off the rails, for which I apologize.

 

[RememberTheWay]

And, chicken self selection of proper AA levels:

Dietary Selection of Lysine by the Chick.

Thank you for providing this study. I enjoyed reading the excerpt. By any chance do you know what they were considering an "adequate level" for the lysine?

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Thank you for providing this study. I enjoyed reading the excerpt. By any chance do you know what they were considering an "adequate level" for the lysine?

Depends on Age and breed (purpose). Here are the old NRC recommends for hens and broilers p3 and 4. Metastudy for layers. and here is what Cobb says about their own broilers.

 

[BDutch]

…

Btw- my apologies. I have somehow gotten off in the weeds over here concerning this topic. Lol. Feel free to wrangle me back in at your convenience!

Interesting discussion to read, but I just give my chickens organic food and a variety of waste food , grains (organic scratch) , sunflower seeds, mealworms, egg shells, and oyster shell. + They search their own feed too when they free range. I give mostly chick feed now, bc I have juveniles

I don’t weigh or count. I don’t mind if its not optimised for eggs or offspring.
Only try to give no fat/sweet/salty food and not > ⅓ (guessing ) aside. My oldest lives with me for > 10 years now and is as healthy as can be. So what I do can’t be very wrong.