new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[NanaK]

Around here there's no workers. Lots of restaurants have closed or limited hours. Same with the grocery stores. One grocery store is picking up non driving retirees to work in the stores. At least I seen several guys my age get out of a store van and shortly started stocking shelves. I asked and that's what they said.

Farm workers have different Labor laws
60% of other industry wages. Longer hours
https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor/#:~:text=In 1990, the average real,the nonfarm wage ($27.56).

Yes pay is low and since they are seasonal usually little to no benefits.

 

[Molpet]

Yes pay is low and since they are seasonal usually little to no benefits.

Google must be watching me. This showed up

 

[RememberTheWay]

How does it make difference if the we break up the ingredients and allow the bird to choose what ultimately is a 'complete feed ration" (nutritionally the same as a "complete feed ration") or we just by pass the bird choosing the bits and pieces and provide a complete ration to them pre mixed?

Having a hard time wrapping my head around this one

this is false. There are papers showing that both laying hens and chicks select a balanced diet if offered all the necessary elements separately:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032579119347285
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032579119562289

Edited to add: see also now the paper linked in #143, on meat birds selecting a balanced diet when offered free choice.

Edited again to add: see now the paper linked in #196, on pullets laying more eggs and with better feed efficiency when allowed to self-select their food.

 

[FunnyBunny89]

It said that was one of the myths. So you and I are good to continue eating our delicious chicken skin!

Yeah, animal fat is good! and I'm pretty sure we've known that as a species since forever. Post ww2 food production was a wild and crazy time I'm so glad we're finally getting away from that.

 

[Perris]

How does it make difference if the we break up the ingredients and allow the bird to choose what ultimately is a 'complete feed ration" (nutritionally the same as a "complete feed ration") or we just by pass the bird choosing the bits and pieces and provide a complete ration to them pre mixed?

Having a hard time wrapping my head around this one

read this then
https://practicalfarmers.b-cdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Atwood-et-al-2001-tmr-vs-choice.pdf

 

[Penpal]

Thank you, Perris. I have wanted to do a similar experiment, but I don't have enough birds to do it justice. Just the same, I see some variation in what they choose to it. It changes from chick to adolescent, the chicks choosing on their own one day to also eat from the big chickens plate until one day they ignore the baby food.

 

[RememberTheWay]

I read through most of it.

read this then
https://practicalfarmers.b-cdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Atwood-et-al-2001-tmr-vs-choice.

That paper is about cows. Not poultry. Poultry vs mammals are very different. Even setting that issue aside- the paper clearly states that rate of gain was not different between the groups, and I believe it said total weights at the end were not different. And it also stated that when given the choice they still chose what would be considered a balanced ration. Yes, I saw that energy vs protein consumption changed day to day. And it also said that overall it was pretty comparable. But I also saw that they top dressed the corn and forage with vit/min mix and personally I think that was a mistake. It probably should of been offered free choice.

But for me the difference in cost even though they claimed it was lower to provide free choice didn't account for the time it takes or the infrastructure to implement such a feeding regimen nor did it account for the difference in start up price. One bag of "complete feed" $22 (for me and what I consider complete) vs $80? ( Estimated because I'm not actually going to go look up all the individual prices right now) maybe more then that because vitamin minerals mixes usually aren't cheap. Anyways -
Again- exactly what are you advocating for? I don't feed a layer ratio. Bc personally I think the nutrition in all of them are garbage. I feed much differently but I also have breeders and that really is a completely different ball game then a backyard flock that thinks it just a bonus to get eggs every now and then. I'm running a business. Yes I care about my animals. The better I care for them, them better return I get. It is in my best interest to feed them the best I possibly can.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

How does it make difference if the we break up the ingredients and allow the bird to choose what ultimately is a 'complete feed ration" (nutritionally the same as a "complete feed ration") or we just by pass the bird choosing the bits and pieces and provide a complete ration to them pre mixed?

Having a hard time wrapping my head around this one

In theory, because individual birds will have slightly differing nutritional needs, offering them sufficient variation that they self-balance their own nutritional intakes will result in more optimum meeting of their needs. Assuming, of course, that the ingredients offered are adequate to that task.

As opposed to offering a well formulated but otherwise "generic" one-size-fits-all All Flock type formulation intended to meet or exceed the need of almost all birds at almost all life stages (together with free choice calcium, of course).

Is it more cost effective? Almost certainly not. Does it have the convenience of pouring out a bag? again, no. Is there some risk that some birds might self-select a diet bad for them in the long term (like us with Cokes, Doritos, Twinkies, and Ice cream?) Sure - and we in fact see that to some extent with certain "whole grain" feeds.

I certainly don't feed my birds a dozen plus options and trust them to fill their plates appropriately. I've read the research, I know it *can* work. Is it a workable solution for me? Nope. Does the research support the belief that one can assume their birds are self-selecting to meet their needs simply by turning them loose? Also nope.

But I readily concede that a good bag of pre-mix is not the "only workable way".

 

[Perris]

@RememberTheWay You said you couldn't get your head around the difference between chickens given free choice of ration components and chickens fed a total mixed feed, so I cited that paper as I think it explains it more clearly than the ones that focussed on chickens (which have been cited earlier in the thread and which I assumed you had already read). For what it's worth re: poultry v mammals, this behaviour has also been shown to be true of e.g. baboons, locusts, and even slime moulds, so I think we can take it as the norm not the exception in the animal kingdom and likely the norm in the funga too.

I am not advocating for anything; how you live is up to you, and I personally have nothing to gain from whatever you or anybody else reading this does or does not do.

I care about knowledge and ignorance of food - both for us and our chickens. There is a great deal of misinformation on this topic online, and I started this thread when it was really getting out of hand. Thankfully the situation on BYC has improved a lot.

 

[Perris]

Is there some risk that some birds might self-select a diet bad for them in the long term (like us with Cokes, Doritos, Twinkies, and Ice cream?) Sure - and we in fact see that to some extent with certain "whole grain" feeds.

would you like to supply some evidence (proper research, not anecdotes please) to support this?