new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[Shadrach]

There is also the complication that:

a) Not all protein is "the same", and there are a handful of studies showing that chickens, at least, can have difficulty in optimizing their critical amino acid intakes in the presence of a cafe of moderate to high calorie foods

and

b) studies have shown, again and again, that critters (us, chickens, others) ability to self regulate intake gets "wonky" once our daily caloric needs are met. With that understanding, seeking micronutrients in foods of low caloric density makes very good sense since it allows the eater to address both needs while staying near their desired caloric target.

So eat your veggies first???

[Edit: and I've not watched the YouTube video, but the simple fact that its posted on Youtube makes me doubt its veracity]

What the studies I've read suggest is it's the amino acid profile rather than the crude protein content that's important. Yet again, it is quite complicated but the studies found that if the amino acid profile was maintained at differing crude protein levels egg production and hens weight were not adversely affected by lower crude protein content.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

What the studies I've read suggest is it's the amino acid profile rather than the crude protein content that's important. Yet again, it is quite complicated but the studies found that if the amino acid profile was maintained at differing crude protein levels egg production and hens weight were not adversely affected by lower crude protein content.

I'll dig it up. The early cafeteria studies support your claim - I've repeated it myself and linked those studies approvingly. There are a few more recent studies that found less than optimal AA intake where the "cafeteria" provided high energy options holding key aminos.

I read it as a caution to not put all one's nutritional eggs into a single ingredient basket

 

[Altairsky]

This is so wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start.

The guy posted actual scientific studies in the video description, proving his points.
Now the fun thing about scientific studies is that they prove everything and the opposite of everything, depending on the flavour of the month and who's spending the money.
Everyone is perfectly allowed to believe in one or the other. I believe in the studies that confirms my own experience and what makes my flock healthier.
I fed my flock a 15% protein layer feed and after 3 months my chickens almost end up sick from it. That's enough for me, no matter how many studies funded by the feed industry prove that 12% protein is enough and layer feed is all your chickens need to have long healthy lives.

 

[Perris]

For me the key thing to hold onto in this discussion is that all living things, us and our chickens included, are dynamic, not static, systems. We change every hour of every day (indeed, one may wonder how our sense of self persists if all, or almost all, the cells in our bodies, and in particular if brain cells, get replaced over time). At a larger and more relevant scale to the current discussion, the same body needs different things at different times in its life, varying with e.g. age, sex, immediate health status, current challenges in physical or mental environment etc. etc.. So claims about a universal right or wrong percentage of this or that just miss the point, to my way of thinking.

 

[Molpet]

When I feed 20% they ate about 30 lbs a day this winter. 16% layer 40 lbs or more. Oyster shells and grit always on the side.

 

[Labsandchickens8]

Why? There were a couple of facts I would challenge but they were minor. Otherwise I think what he says is correct.

I agree. I was wondering if Shadrach was referring to the fact that chickens are routinely being fed the lowest amount of protein possible to stay alive and lay eggs, and production breeds due at 18 months. Is that the wrong part?

 

[Labsandchickens8]

I agree. I was wondering if Shadrach was referring to the fact that chickens are routinely being fed the lowest amount of protein possible to stay alive and lay eggs, and production breeds due at 18 months. Is that the wrong part?

Sorry. Ignore my question. I didn't go back to your earlier post before I posted this.

 

[Shadrach]

When doing the research writing my last article I came away with more questions than answers. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of papers written on the topic of poultry feeding. Most studies write about ranges rather than specific values and one has to bear in mind that the majority of such studies are looking for ways to improve production.
I read a few crop contents studies which purported to demonstrate that this is what a hen might eat in a day.
But, a while before reading these articles I had read other more recent articles stating that a hen can and does direct food either to her crop is straight to her proventriculus and into the gizzard. So the crop contents studies are only reporting some percentage of intake.

The above brought me to investigate what foodstuffs a hen was likely to send where and under what conditions and that brought me to the high protein chicken feed debate.

I don't have any answers but I do have a lot of questions.
This article is in my opinion a fair representation of this type of study.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032579119492924

What I would like readers to note is the adoption of protein requirements per day, per hen as the focus rather than the protein content in the feed. This makes life a lot easier. There are even equations that will calculate it.

Say one has a contained hen/s in the recommended ten square feet per bird. One feeds them an 18% crude protein commercial feed available on demand. Studies suggest that the availability of food has a major influence on where this food gets sent, processed feed being sent to the gizzard traveled through the hens digestive system faster than any of the other foodstuffs they offered the hen.
That needs thinking about for a moment.

Back to the chickens in the run.
Feeding quantity is advised from always available to 150 grams a day or more.
Taking 150 grams this gives 27 grams of protein.

But, in the study above and others they contend that 11 grams to 14 grams of protein a day is adequate. What does the hen do with the remaining grams from the 27 she ate?

 

[saysfaa]

...What does the hen do with the remaining grams from the 27 she ate?

Excretes at least some of it based on the components of manure. And the different compositions of manure relative to diet.

 

[Labsandchickens8]

When doing the research writing my last article I came away with more questions than answers. There must be hundreds, if not thousands of papers written on the topic of poultry feeding. Most studies write about ranges rather than specific values and one has to bear in mind that the majority of such studies are looking for ways to improve production.
I read a few crop contents studies which purported to demonstrate that this is what a hen might eat in a day.
But, a while before reading these articles I had read other more recent articles stating that a hen can and does direct food either to her crop is straight to her proventriculus and into the gizzard. So the crop contents studies are only reporting some percentage of intake.

The above brought me to investigate what foodstuffs a hen was likely to send where and under what conditions and that brought me to the high protein chicken feed debate.

I don't have any answers but I do have a lot of questions.
This article is in my opinion a fair representation of this type of study.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032579119492924

What I would like readers to note is the adoption of protein requirements per day, per hen as the focus rather than the protein content in the feed. This makes life a lot easier. There are even equations that will calculate it.

Say one has a contained hen/s in the recommended ten square feet per bird. One feeds them an 18% crude protein commercial feed available on demand. Studies suggest that the availability of food has a major influence on where this food gets sent, processed feed being sent to the gizzard traveled through the hens digestive system faster than any of the other foodstuffs they offered the hen.
That needs thinking about for a moment.

Back to the chickens in the run.
Feeding quantity is advised from always available to 150 grams a day or more.
Taking 150 grams this gives 27 grams of protein.

But, in the study above and others they contend that 11 grams to 14 grams of protein a day is adequate. What does the hen do with the remaining grams from the 27 she ate?

I'm feeding a 20 percent protein layer pellet, because it is locally milled and has the correct amino acids. I give fresh greens, sprouts and veggies daily, add herbs to layer mash (17 percent protein) several times a week, some fresh fruit, plain Greek yogurt maybe once a week, and they get 1 to 2 hours in the yard a day. They don't get any green stuff in the yard right now that I can see but they might get some bugs and seeds. (They spend all their time scratching through leaves getting something.) Oh, and a handful of scratch with Boss every day when it's time to go back in the run (which has room for 20 more chickens based on the ridiculous standard of 10 square feet per chicken!) I'm working toward avian netting (maybe next week!) for more time outside and then more outside space. I'm saying all of this because like most of us here, I do want what's best for them and I don't trust the official guidelines.
I've always worried that they get too much protein, because all other layer feed I've seen tops out at 18 percent. I don't supplement with sardines or mealworms etc. very much for that reason.
I really wish there was more research on backyard chickens and I had more information to judge their protein needs by.
I'm really looking forward to your article! I think we desperately need more knowledge about what's best for our chickens - and what's really best, not what will produce more eggs more quickly.