New with a lot of questions

[aart]

Once again, I'm thankful for the replies. So in an eggshell...lol, I had to say it...start smaller, stay flexible. Are there any good posts or articles on selling layers? I would rather sell the pullets if there is a market. I am thinking Lazy Gardener is right about keeping a meat breed and a laying breed. I need more research on breed I suppose. That's OK, I love me some research!

You might want to start with a large enough coop/run to accommodate your end goal, with thoughts towards partitioning off sections inside the coop with separate runs for layers, broodies, growing out chicks....etc,etc. IIRC the meat birds would be in a separate building?

But starting with a smaller number of chickens is a good suggestion, you'll learn alot in keeping a small flock that will make maintaining a large flock easier in the long run.

Selling layers/pullets is adding yet another aspect to your plans and depends on your local market.

Where are you located? Putting your location in your profile can help folks give more viable solutions/answers as climate can have a big effect on management.
Is there a poultry auction nearby?
Have you checked craigslist etc to see what's selling in the area?

You could cross specific breeds to produce sexlinked chicks that can be separated by gender at hatch, so you can sell pullet chicks and grow out the cockerels for meat.
You could grow out your hatch and sell POL(Point Of Lay) pullets once gender is determined at around 4-5 months old....and again, harvest the cockerels for meat.

Not sure of your meat harvesting/selling plans.

 

[Strangecacti]

You might want to start with a large enough coop/run to accommodate your end goal, with thoughts towards partitioning off sections inside the coop with separate runs for layers, broodies, growing out chicks....etc,etc. IIRC the meat birds would be in a separate building?

But starting with a smaller number of chickens is a good suggestion, you'll learn alot in keeping a small flock that will make maintaining a large flock easier in the long run.

Selling layers/pullets is adding yet another aspect to your plans and depends on your local market.

Where are you located? Putting your location in your profile can help folks give more viable solutions/answers as climate can have a big effect on management.
Is there a poultry auction nearby?
Have you checked craigslist etc to see what's selling in the area?

You could cross specific breeds to produce sexlinked chicks that can be separated by gender at hatch, so you can sell pullet chicks and grow out the cockerels for meat.
You could grow out your hatch and sell POL(Point Of Lay) pullets once gender is determined at around 4-5 months old....and again, harvest the cockerels for meat.

Not sure of your meat harvesting/selling plans.

The coop/run set up will be: 1) In the barn where (at some point there was a chicken house) will be refurbished and a run built, this is a smallish area which will be for the layers, haven't measured it but it is approximately 6' x 12' the run for this section will be about, 20' x 65' ; 2) I am building a log coop on a 12' x 12' concrete pad, the run will be 35' x 45', that run will be broken into 2 sections so I can allow them to graze/ forage, and while they are using one side I will reseed the other to ensure they have plenty of natural foods to supplement and amuse themselves.

For the most part the eggs/meat are just for my family, though I would like to sell the excess eggs to some people I know and (hopefully) make the chickens pay for themselves. Selling layers had not crossed my mind, but it does make a great deal of sense and I haven't gotten to look into my local market as I only read the reply this morning.

I'm located in Southern Illinois, thanks for the reminder about the profile, it's next!

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’ll throw in some comments on breed.

You cannot match the broilers (I’ll avoid the phrase you did not want to hear again) for meat production. They have been bred for that and nothing else. You cannot match the commercial egg-laying hybrids for egg production. They have been bred for that and nothing else. One of their characteristics is that they have a very small body with extremely little meat so most of what they eat goes to egg production, not maintenance of a large body. You’ve basically said you don’t want any of those and I don’t either. But you can’t beat their efficiency.

I really think people get hung up on breed. Some breeds do have tendencies, but each chicken within a breed is an individual and may or may not follow those tendencies. Unless the person selecting which chickens get to breed select those chickens for those specific tendencies, the traits get lost. Those traits are all-encompassing: how fast they reach maturity or butcher size, size, shape, color, and frequency of egg laying, whether barring is sharp or blurred, how well they handle confinement, whether or not they tend to go broody, how soft and flexible or how brittle the feathers are, eye color,…... The list just goes on and on.

Each hatchery is unique because they have different people selecting which chickens are allowed to breed and they each have different business plans. They are in the business to mass-produce chicks at a reasonable price. Most are going to use the pen breeding method to maintain genetic diversity and mass produce those chicks. They might put 20 roosters in a pen with 200 hens and let random breeding take care of genetic diversity. No matter how much effort the person selecting the breeders puts into it, you are just not going to get show quality chickens and the chickens you do get will not be all that uniform in many traits. Since the hens that lay a lot of eggs produce more candidates for this selection, the hatchery hens tend to lay fairly well whether the person selecting the chickens select for that trait or not. How efficient they are at converting feed to meat or rate of growth are generally not traits they are looking at. I’ll say it again. Each hatchery is unique. The same breed from different hatcheries have different traits.

There is a lot more diversity in breeders. Some breeders are breeding purely for show. They only breed for the traits the judge sees. The judge does not see anything about rate of weight gain, anything about the eggs, or anything about behavior in the flock. They produce some beautiful birds but these may not be the ones you want.

Some people (extremely few) not only breed for show but breed for tghe other traits the breed is supposed to have. That’s why you occasionally see where certain breeds are endangered because there are only two or three flocks in the country breeding true whatever that breed is although there are a lot of people breeding them for show.. This is where breed really matters, but these hatching eggs or chickens can be really expensive if you can buy them at all. Many of these very passionate people won’t even sell you eggs or chickens unless you can convince them that your goal and passion is to preserve the breed the way they are trying to preserve the breed.

Some people don’t necessarily breed for show but breed for production, maybe meat production, maybe egg production, maybe both. These may not even be a specific breed but what we call a barnyard mix. If you are only after production, what difference does eye color or whether the comb has five points or six really matter?

Some people take hatchery birds, breed them, and sell them as purebreds. They may or may not have an idea what they are doing. They may know enough to enhance certain traits or they may just take the cutest or friendliest chickens and let then breed. I don’t see anything wrong with any of these as long as they are upfront about what they are doing.

I bought hatchery birds of different breeds and started selecting the breeders for the traits I want. My goals were not pure production, I selected for certain colors and patterns as well. That makes selecting for production a lot harder. The fewer traits you are selecting for the easier it is. It also helps to hatch a lot of chicks. I eat about 40 chickens a year so that’s all I hatch. That does not give me a great number to select from. It’s been slow.

One of your goals is to sell chicks or chickens. One way to maximize chick or chicken price is to learn how to breed for show (not cheap because of all the management and separation you have to do, plus they need special diets, plus there is a very steep learning curve), get some really expensive but great stock, win a few grand championships, and make a name for your line of chickens. Not going to happen, huh?

On a more practical note, purebreds tend to sell better and for a little more money than mixed breeds. Another way is to have chicks that can easily be sexed at hatch so you can what you want. Some breeds are auto sexing (though that can be trickier than some people think, especially before you gain some experience). Certain crosses can be sexed at hatch by down color or pattern, but you have to either buy replacement breeders or maintain two separate flocks to keep the breeders pure plus manage your crosses when they hatch. If they can be sexed at hatch you don’t have to feed them until they are mature enough to sex. Or maybe you can sell point-of-lay pullets at a high enough cost to cover your feed bill.

Something that can be a hot seller too is pullets that lay green or blue eggs. The big problem with this though is that these chickens tend to not be great at production, especially for meat. Some hatchery EE’s are pretty good at egg production.

I suggest the first point of your research is to decide what traits you want if you are not clear on that. It sounds like you might be, but you cannot get what you want if you don’t know what you want. To me, this is the most important step, though remain flexible because some things won’t turn out as you plan.

Then come up with a plan to get what you want. The closer you can get to your goals with your initial stock, the better off you are. You can start with hatchery stock and through selective breeding and eating the ones you don’t want to eat and breeding the ones you do, you can get your own strain that can come pretty close to your goals. If you can find a breeder that is breeding for your goals and knows what they are doing you will be a lot further along when you start.

How do you find a breeder that is actually breeding for your goals? I don’t know. Maybe go to local chicken shows and chat with the people there. Maybe find your state thread in the “Where am I? Where are you!” section of this forum and open a discussion. Maybe by pure luck. If you have “natural” foods stores or restaurants that buy their eggs or chickens locally, find out who supplies them. Go to farmer’s markets and chat with people selling eggs or hopefully meat.

Good luck! What you are talking about can be done. Doesn’t mean it is real easy is you have stringent goals.

 

[aart]

Once again, I'm thankful for the replies. So in an eggshell...lol, I had to say it...start smaller, stay flexible. Are there any good posts or articles on selling layers? I would rather sell the pullets if there is a market. I am thinking Lazy Gardener is right about keeping a meat breed and a laying breed. I need more research on breed I suppose. That's OK, I love me some research!

Quote: You did mention selling layers/pullets in a previous post, why I addressed it.

 

[Strangecacti]

I understand aart, what I should have said was I had not considered selling layers until it was brought up in this thread, didn't even know the term "Point of Lay" until I joined BYC and started this thread a few days ago.

I'm a bit stuck on a meat breed, I'm going through the Breeds section and just let me say: WOW...that's a lot of information to sift through.
In regards to Ridge Runners post on breed, all I am looking for is egg and meat production; selling PoL chickens and any other selling of the product is secondary to my freezers needs. Color of the chickens or their eggs is not important to me. I'll find enjoyment in the birds themselves because I love animals and agriculture.
I was going with Barred Rocks because they are "Dual Purpose"and I will use them as layers, there are so many good reviews on them, but if they are not going to come to a decent slaughter weight in a timely fashion I can't use them for meat production, three to four months until slaughter weight I can deal with, five or six is too much. I'm not anti cornish x (it may have sounded that way), but I can't use them because, as I understand it, they don't breed true, they have health problems due to their quick growth etc...that doesn't fit my needs. I'm looking through the forums to help me with selecting a meat bird, but what are your thoughts? Any favorites?

 

[donrae]

No dual purpose cockerel is going to be what I'd consider a nice butcher weight at 3 months. You'd need Freedom Rangers or Pioneers, one of the slow broiler breeds. Or anticipate very small carcasses, which IMO defeats the purpose of raising your own.

 

[lazy gardener]

I grew Pioneers last spring, and was pleased with them. Have not tried the Rangers. Kept one of my Pioneer pullets and she's a nice layer.

 

[bobbi-j]

I understand aart, what I should have said was I had not considered selling layers until it was brought up in this thread, didn't even know the term "Point of Lay" until I joined BYC and started this thread a few days ago.

I'm a bit stuck on a meat breed, I'm going through the Breeds section and just let me say: WOW...that's a lot of information to sift through.
In regards to Ridge Runners post on breed, all I am looking for is egg and meat production; selling PoL chickens and any other selling of the product is secondary to my freezers needs. Color of the chickens or their eggs is not important to me. I'll find enjoyment in the birds themselves because I love animals and agriculture.
I was going with Barred Rocks because they are "Dual Purpose"and I will use them as layers, there are so many good reviews on them, but if they are not going to come to a decent slaughter weight in a timely fashion I can't use them for meat production, three to four months until slaughter weight I can deal with, five or six is too much. I'm not anti cornish x (it may have sounded that way), but I can't use them because, as I understand it, they don't breed true, they have health problems due to their quick growth etc...that doesn't fit my needs. I'm looking through the forums to help me with selecting a meat bird, but what are your thoughts? Any favorites?

I raised Freedom Rangers last year, both black and red. I will get the red ones again, but not the black ones. Within the first week, I'd lost 8 of 25, they took longer to reach a good butchering weight, and I just wasn't pleased with them in general. The red ones dressed out at 5-6 lbs in 12 weeks, had nice carcasses, and seemed healthier in general. I kept one pullet over, and she seems to be doing well. I'm not home during the day, so I don't know if she's laying yet or not. I would think that Freedom Rangers could be kept over for breeding.

 

[pdirt]

If you're not anti Cornish Cross, then I'd seriously take another look at them. True, you have to buy new chicks each time from a hatchery, but there is no other breed that will come even close to the weight they will gain. Pretty much all non-CX breeds are going to take you 4-5 months to get much meat on them at all. And even then, it will never even come close to a CX. Some have tried other "slow broilers" like the Freedom Rangers. I have not yet, I'm also not sure if they breed true or not. CX butcher out at 6 WEEKS. Not sure on the Freedom Rangers or other slower broilers.

From what I understand, the CX need feed management. Too much and they put on weight too quickly (leg problems) and too little and you're starving them because their genetics are commanding them to grow so darn fast. The Meat Birds ETC will surely fill your brain for months on it. There are folks there that can teach you how to reduce the number of leg issues/heart attacks.

I think our Barred Rocks we butchered at about 5 months. I don't recall exactly how much they weighed. We free-ranged them quite a bit, which I think resulted in overall less weight and perhaps slightly tougher flesh, not sure yet. Next time we will reduce the amount of free range time they get so they eat more formulated feed and don't walk around so much. We also raised some Dark Cornish, which we would also do again, I think they may have grown a bit better than even the BRs.

We've also bought pastured CX from a local farm. I'm not sure their exact feeding methods, but they do use chicken tractors to move them around on pasture. They honestly are also fairly slim in terms of meat, perhaps 20% better than our BRs, though only a third of the grow-out time. Not like any grocery store chicken I've ever had with lots of meat, which were probably just packed into big feed lots, without any free range/pasture time.

My main beef with CX is it just doesn't seem normal or right. Just because a breed has been bred to grow super fast, doesn't make it right. It seems grotesque to me. They grow so dang fast that yes, it's common for them to have leg issues and not be able to walk or suddenly drop dead of heart attacks. I'm not going to stop eating CX, but it's not a staple in our house anymore. I'd rather eat our own for as long as were able to. Perhaps I will change my tune some day. I can also buy CX anywhere, but where does one buy a regular dual purpose meat bird, like the BR?

 

[bobbi-j]

My red freedom rangers were processed at 12-13 weeks. If I remember right, they dressed out between 5-7 lbs. The freedom rangers came in all shapes and colors. They're not a uniform bird. If I remember right, they are a cross between several breeds. I would seriously consider keeping a rooster and hens for breeding in the future. I was going to do it last year, but between the early losses of the black ones, and an unsupervised puppy ('nuf said there - lesson learned), I lost over half my flock of 50, so we ended up butchering the rest.