Not an Emergency...Marek's in the Flock

[Sonya9]

I have a question for those that have cared for paralysed birds etc.... Why does it seem there is little to no interest in trying antiviral herpes drugs?

I think that could show real promise when it comes to treating individual birds. It is not an overall cure but there is no cure for any herpes virus.

My current Marek's victim has been paralyzed for many weeks now, the first bird was also paralyzed for weeks before she died. If folks are willing to care for them in the hope they might recover why aren't more people interested in using medicine that could very well force the virus into remission? Is it because it is not "holistic"?

 

[lalaland]

Personally, I never heard of such a thing til I read the thread you started (https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...al-meds-for-mareks-has-anyone-else-tried-this).

I try to go the holistic/natural approach when possible but there are realities when I think western medicine is great and I use it for myself and for my animals in those situations. When my cat developed food allergies, and needed medical treatment, I bought the prescription for steroids but withheld them as it wasn't necessary with the other steps I was taking. If that hadn't worked, I would have used the steroids until I could figure something else out.

If I had a paralyzed mareks chicken, and if I could access the stuff you used, and if I could afford it, and if I could figure out how to care for the chicken while being away at work for 13-14 hours a day, I would try it!

 

[seminolewind]

Anecdotally, all of my Marek's (confirmed) symptoms and deaths have been in late winter. The time of year and/or temperature is a good theory, but it would be hard to figure out one way or another just by talking with backyard chicken enthusiasts.

I just told this to someone via PM, but I will share it here:
I have started to come to hate Marek's more for the immunosupression more than anything. As heart-breaking as the visceral form is with paralysis and/or rapid cancerous tumor growth, the long-term chiseling away at a chicken's health (for those susceptible to it) and the owner always second-guessing and trying to figure out "what is it this time" and "how do I treat this" ...frankly really sucks. Those that keep chickens as livestock are often right to cull in these situations, but I'm a loony that loves my birds as pets so it's doubly hard.

I am a layperson and do not understand or know the nitty gritty and details of RNA/DNA retroviruses. That said, have we (modern science/humanity) ever created a cure even for human DNA vrisues? I am asking genuinely. I don't know. Remember that these viruses inject themselves into the very DNA of their host's cells and are manufactured by the host's cells. Truthfully, the Marek's vaccine is better protection for chickens than most anything we have for humans against DNA-type herpesviruses. I'm amazed we know as much and can do as much as we can.

Have any of you with Marek's positive flocks gone through your own mental evolution as we (as a chicken community) have learned about this disease? I know I have. I went from terror and feeling hopeless, to feeling somewhat educated and feeling like I had a handle on it all, to going back to feeling hopeless as I learned that nothing I researched was absolute, to questioning myself, to feeling better informed yet again, etc etc. It is a rollercoaster.

Absolutely true.
There are so many viruses that humans have never produced resistance to. Some viruses like Marek's and Herpes just keep changing their makeup so that meds or resistance can't stop them, they just morph into something else.

Nambroth, I know we've gone from terror to education and back to terror because of education and now we're at some new possibilities -another hurdle.

I thought resistance was built by an exposure signaling the immune system to produce antibodies. Seems the immune system is not distinguishing between an attenuated virus and the live virus. The immune system appears to be building the exact same antibodies for both. This is why I have a problem with the meaning of natural resistance. The vaccine I feel is just like any exposure, however, with a vaccine you will never see the resistance like you do with a 4-5 year old exposed hen.

Like Nambroth , I'm trying to chip away as much as I can to prevent death by Marek's. Out of 6-7 demises last year, I was quick to say "another Marek's victim". But following 3 necropsies, and thinking about the others and the way they died had got me thinking about all the nasties we can treat for that are secondary to Mareks and immunosuppression.

I do really like times like this where we put all our ideas together. Makes for better learning.

 

[ochochicas]

A few months ago I did research anti-viral drugs. It seems they are difficult to get and they are expensive. I called my vet to try to get a prescription to order something online but she never followed through. Another friend of mine had some anti-viral meds from when her cat was sick. She told me I could have them, but they were expired and I could not find a dose (or even indication) for the use in chickens. I think it is something that should be explore more.

 

[seminolewind]

I thought anti viral meds would be expensive.

 

[Sonya9]

I thought anti viral meds would be expensive.

No it is super cheap!

Valacyclovir (generic Valtrex) is the leading drug for human herpes and I paid $1.35 per 500 mg tablet, my vet called in a script for 15 tablets to a local pharmacy. Don't buy online! Much cheaper get it at a local pharnacy.

Since 500mg pills are for adult humans and I only give the chicken a tiny amount of that pill one tablet lasts us 3-4 weeks. That means $2 could treat a chicken for weeks.

I base my dosing roughly on the dose for infants, which is 20 mg per lb.

 

[mightymax]

Chicken Pox, Mumps, Measles and Polio, are all diseases that are viral and for which we have found a 'cure'.
Limited exposure does instigate the creation of immunity and attenuated vaccines are 'alive'. They're virulence, or potency, has just been reduced, but they are still a live virus.
Resistance is being built to viral medications at this very moment, so who's to say that in 5, 10, 20 years the medications that we now use will still be effective?
I mean, that's what's happening with the medications we have for bacterial diseases. A great number of them don't work anymore due to overexposure, overuse and
ignorant doctors with poor prescribing practices. What we need is less big brother pharmaceutical companies run by people that I wouldn't let trim my toenails, much
less decide my medical regimen, controlling the health care in America, and a lot more individual investment and support for the scientists and researchers of this country.

-kim-

 

[mightymax]

On no Maynard, please tell me that she didn't go there...
Oh yes Martha, she did...

LOL !!!

 

[ochochicas]

Limited exposure does instigate the creation of immunity and attenuated vaccines are 'alive'. They're virulence, or potency, has just been reduced, but they are still a live virus.

Does this mean you believe that exposing chicks to small amounts of the virus will cause them to develop natural immunity?

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
That's what the vaccine does. And I have to say that I had hatched 8 mixed Jerseys for someone, they were in the house for a few weeks, outside in a hutch amongst the other chickens for 2 months, so at 12 weeks old they went to a farm, and they were fine, and one came back to me and he's about 2 years old now. So I do wonder if minute exposure would do the same as the vaccine. Like have unvaccinated chicks, at 3 weeks old expose them to the flock for *** hours, then send them off to live elsewhere for 4 months and bring them back.

It's all about the amount of virus they are exposed to vs. the amount of immunity they have. Like Kim said, the vaccine is like a weak exposure.