Not an Emergency...Marek's in the Flock

[Haunted55]

You should be able to find charcoal in a good pet store, in the salt water aquarium section. I would think that would work just fine.

You'd have to grind it up smaller before you could give it though. Usually, a bird won't want anything if they have been poisoned and you need it fine enough that mixed with a small amount of water you can get it down their throat. If you saw your bird eat say...pelletized lawn fertilizer, and you had this filter charcoal? Yeah, why not? If the bird will eat it it would work. What I would worry about though is would it pass through or would it stay like grit would.

 

[Haunted55]

Her posture very much lines up with the Marek's I experienced with my rooster. HOWEVER... I am not saying it is Marek's based on that alone. I'm just saying that this posture and behavior is heart-breakingly familiar.

All I can tell you are my experiences. I do not claim to be an expert nor again am I saying that this is what your chicken has.

His physical symptoms were:

-Inability to move legs voluntarily. He rested back on his ankles or fully down on his keel. He often leaned back a bit. We had to form a "doughnut" around him with towels to keep him from rolling backward and onto his side (the laundry basket is brilliant!). Despite the towels, when he had to pass a poo, he would attempt to stand. He had the power but no motor control, and would throw himself backward and sideways. He could not recover from this position without our help. Once his heart started to go (from Marek's lymphomatic tumors growing into it) this caused him immense distress and he couldn't breathe. We had to tend to him at all times.

-As his diet decreased, at one point he would only eat mealworms, and then nothing at all. I tube fed him a few times. Despite getting the correct hydration and "gruel" fed to him this way, his poos became more sickly over time, turning more green. They were eventually quite a bright green.

-He was alert, very friendly, and bright-eyed the whole time, right until the moment we had to put him down because he could no longer breathe/get enough blood circulation (heart tumors). Very curious, tracked out movements, even looked at food-- just wouldn't take any. He was very quiet and would only make a noise when he'd tumble over.. a very quiet little cluck one or twice as if he were asking for help (which we obviously were tending to him at all times).

Even on the two hour ride to the vet to have his final evaluation he was bright eyed and made tiny mutters every time he saw a hawk or crow fly over the car.

I don't know if his wings were similarly without motor control-- he didn't attempt to use them in the final days.

Strangely enough, he had one droopy eyelid like your hen (no pupil changes), but he had that since day one. I don't think it was related to the Marek's. It was enough for the vet to ask me about it, though.

We noticed his lowered appetite on a Saturday (before this he seemed 110% healthy and vigorous)... Monday he went to the vet (and had surgery Tuesday), Wednesday he developed the paralysis, and by Friday he was very sick indeed. He went downhill very rapidly.
So, he went from "fine" to "paralyzed" in 4 days, and from fine to knowing his quality of life was gone in 7. When he was struggling so very hard to breathe and the diagnosis of lymphoma came in we felt it was necessary to put him at peace. I honestly don't know how long he would have lived had we not, but the vet was grim, and I know avian physiology well enough to know that he was dying.
If he wasn't struggling so badly for breath (and I got the diagnosis of lymphoma from the diagnostics lab while at the vet's office), I would have absolutely continued to try to save him the way you are with your hen.

Nambroth, how long from first onset of symptoms to diagnosis? I know with mine once they show occular changes, it's a matter of days, but motor function symptoms normally go on for months if allowed.

 

[Haunted55]

Genilou, if your bird has been given birth control to stop egg production, she doesn't need all the calcium. That is sending mixed messages to her poor body. From the sounds of it, this poor girl has internal problems because of genetics or disease. I personally don't believe all the calcium in the world is going to change that. I am not a Vet, all I can tell you is what I would do if this girl were mine.....

First, I would stop all calcium intake for her. No dark green vegetables, no layer mash and no calcium supplements. I would just give her a grower feed, 15% and maybe mealworms for the added protien, as a treat. I would use the Super B Complex tablets in her water and call it good and wait for a few days.

With what I read in your post, it really does sound to me as if she has way too much D and calcium in her. If the Vet gave this on the assumption of the soft shells being from a calcium or vitamin D lack and wasn't aware of her complete history...yeah, it could be a problem. Blood work needed to be done to show the levels in her system because even hens will have problems with calcium if their bodies aren't able to utilize it properly for egg production. This is only my opinion, based on what I have read and seen with my own.

I recommend the Super B Complex a lot because it also has vitamin C in it. Chickens normally synthesize vitamin C in their bodies, cool huh? It has been my experience that when I have a bird who is showing neurological symptoms that the addition of the Super Bs go a long way in helping the bird recover...even with Marek's. No it doesn't get rid of the Marek's, but it does seem to give their bodies a fighting chance to kick it back a bit. Vitamin C works along with the Bs to strengthen the nervous system and keep it working correctly. I just did some checking on the half life of D and calcium...the half life of D3 is 10.7 days.....it may be a week before you would see any improvement from removing it from her diet along with the extra calcium.

Nambroth has said her bird with Marek's showed the same posture as yours. I would have to believe them as I know their knowledge base and experience is right up there. That's the thing with Marek's, it has similar base symptoms, but then it also can show itself in a lot of different way depending on the strains you are facing in your area. With out testing of blood or necropsy, you may never know.

 

[genilou]

Genilou, if your bird has been given birth control to stop egg production, she doesn't need all the calcium.  That is sending mixed messages to her poor body.  From the sounds of it, this poor girl has internal problems because of genetics or disease.  I personally don't believe all the calcium in the world is going to change that.  I am not a Vet, all I can tell you is what I would do if this girl were mine.....

First, I would stop all calcium intake for her.  No dark green vegetables, no layer mash and no calcium supplements.  I would just give her a grower feed, 15% and maybe mealworms for the added protien, as a treat.  I would use the Super B Complex tablets in her water and call it good and wait for a few days.

With what I read in your post, it really does sound to me as if she has way too much D and calcium in her.  If the Vet gave this on the assumption of the soft shells being from a calcium or vitamin D lack and wasn't aware of her complete history...yeah, it could be a problem.  Blood work needed to be done to show the levels in her system because even hens will have problems with calcium if their bodies aren't able to utilize it properly for egg production.  This is only my opinion, based on what I have read and seen with my own.

I recommend the Super B Complex a lot because it also has vitamin C in it.  Chickens normally synthesize vitamin C in their bodies, cool huh?  It has been my experience that when I have a bird who is showing neurological symptoms that the addition of the Super Bs go a long way in helping the bird recover...even with Marek's.  No it doesn't get rid of the Marek's, but it does seem to give their bodies a fighting chance to kick it back a bit.  Vitamin C works along with the Bs to strengthen the nervous system and keep it working correctly.  I just did some checking on the half life of D and calcium...the half life of D3 is 10.7 days.....it may be a week before you would see any improvement from removing it from her diet along with the extra calcium.

Nambroth has said her bird with Marek's showed the same posture as yours.  I would have to believe them as I know their knowledge base and experience is right up there.  That's the thing with Marek's, it has similar base symptoms, but then it also can show itself in a lot of different way depending on the strains you are facing in your area.  With out testing of blood or necropsy, you may never know.

Thanks for your input, Haunted. I got a B complex today (they didn't have super b) and got some into her and she also had meal worms, yoghurt, & no mash. I'll ask the vet to test her blood on,Monday when he opens again. The strange thing is the lurching around 2 days after the implant and before her vitamin shot. She's a little different to Nambroth's, partly because of her lurching around, partly because she's stabilised over the last 3 days rather than getting worse. It's a small straw, but I'll clutch at any. She,s having a little nap with me on the couch at the moment. I was able to dropper the vit b into her using the syringe method, too. Thanks for all your help. I'll stop the calcium until I speak with the vet again,- he's been seeing her this whole time, so he does know her quite well, and he's well respected for his work with chooks in our area. I'll have a better look for the super b, too. I'm loathe to be away from her too long so I just grabbed what the health food shop had (worst. Health food shop. Ever) I didn't realise they were that different. Thanks again for sticking with us through this. In some ways it seems like she couldn't possibly survive, then in others it seems like she's strong enough. Time will tell I guess, and good advice.

 

[julie0477]

Well, i found my little guy in his predicament Wednesday night. Yesterday I started him on a vitamin/probiotic supplement in his water. He's eating and drinking but still cannot stand. He tries but cannot balance. He tips over and catches with his wing or falls backward. He can scoot backwards a bit. I try to keep him
Propped up in the corner of his crate. I have to hold the food and drink right up to his beak as he can't reach down and get it. He does seem thin which I hadn't noticed before because being a silkie he's quite fluffy. Poo is normal still though. No diahrrea. Poor lil guy.

 

[ESofVA]

Look for other internet papers of , or descriptions of Mareks.. Mareks can kill a chicken, even if it does not show symptoms. A chicken can recover some Marek's but your chicken would still be a carrier. A chicken can also carry the sortof "dormant" virus, have no symptoms some time, and then symptoms appear later on.. Another thing is that the chicken may have it with no symptoms
be dead the next.

 

[julie0477]

Look for other internet papers of , or descriptions of Mareks.. Mareks can kill a chicken, even if it does not show symptoms.  A chicken can recover some Marek's but your chicken would still be a carrier. A chicken can also carry the sortof "dormant" virus, have no symptoms some time, and then  symptoms appear later on.. Another thing is that the chicken may have it with no symptoms
be dead the next.

yes I have read that as well and know that it's true. There are also several conditions that show the same symptoms so it's just hard to tell. I'm giving my little guy the weekend. If he dies I will have him tested. If he does not I will have him blood tested and deal with the results. It's stressful having lots of other little chicks around :/

 

[casportpony]

Also keep in mind that Marek's is one of the leading causes of death in backyard chickens.

-Kathy

 

[julie0477]

Also keep in mind that Marek's is one of the leading causes of death in backyard chickens.

-Kathy

yes I've read that too. I'll make sure to post what I find out.

 

[julie0477]

Well I noticed this evening another one of my silkie roosters has a slight limp. Very slight so much I thought maybe it was just my imagination. But its there. I've decided to take my immobile roo to the vet first thing Monday morning. His quality of life is horrible as it stands and I am very worried for the rest of my flock. I need to figure out for certain what is going on although I have sick feeling as I am pretty sure I already know