Not an Emergency...Marek's in the Flock

[Nambroth]

Nambroth, thanks for posting all of the info from your vet visit. I keep praying that your rooster's immune system finds a way to fight off this terrible disease. I know how difficult it is and it brings tears to my eyes to read what you are going through. It brings me back to when I was going through it and I can feel my heart breaking again. I told myself that I wouldn't let this disease ruin my enthusiasm for raising chickens. But Marek's brings the toughest of us to our knees.

You have proven to be a great resource of information and moral support. Since this disease is ever changing and there still is a lot of unknowns, there is always hope that we can stumble upon a treatment or supportive care that might help the small few overcome it.

No problem, it is the least I can do. I have been bleeding money into chasing this disease and to learn more about it via testing (etc). I know not everyone can do this-- heck, I shouldn't be doing this, but I don't have children and I live pretty simply so if I can help anyone even a tiny bit by doing this and sharing what I find, it's all worth it.

jennifer - I have no clue if it's helping, but since I had gotten it when my silkie had mareks, I've been using Tumeric extract in the water. You can't put too much in a small amount because it's nasty tasting. Haunted told me to use curcumin which is or is from tumeric. Also curcumin with bioperine is supposed to be good but I have a feeling you have to give lots for a long time. She said it cleans blood. Doc Peter Brown had told me to give 1100mg 3x a day which was 2 capsules 3x a day. That was his best suggestion when I talked to him. I might buy more of the tumeric when I'm out because it seems I've been lucky while I've been adding it, I'm scared to quit! Mine is liquid and I use about a dropper full/gallon.

I hope he will be ok. When not dealing directly with it, I tend to put it out of mind. out of sight out of mind but of course with mareks, that can never really happen.

Thank you. I have been putting tumeric+black pepper into his oatmeal. I understand that it may not be as concentrated or strong as extract or straight up curcumin but I have started to run out of funds to special order things and have to hold some money in reserve in case any of my other birds get ill (I have pet parrots too). I'm also using some coconut oil and nutritional yeast, because why not-- it can't hurt. Now that he is done with his antibiotics I'm giving him a powdered probiotic too.

I am posting this in case any of you would like to participate in this. I am going to see if my vet will come to the house to draw blood to send. Any way I can help them with research gives me hope they might come up with a better vaccine or even better....a cure!

For our best chance at isolating virus, we normally request to receive heparinized whole blood (at least 2ml/bird) shipped with cold packs overnight from at least 4-6 birds with lesions. The blood should not be in direct contact with the ice or cold packs because we don't want the blood to freeze. This is typically easiest by bleeding a number of cull birds and then sending us blood from appropriate birds after posting. It is helpful to know what the gross lesions were and MDV vaccination history. In the case of a backyard flock, you may not have cull birds in which case blood from the birds that look the most sick. I would be interested in samples from your flock or from the people you know with birds showing clinical signs of Marek's disease. I need about 2 days notice from when you plan to ship so I can have cell culture plates ready for trying to isolate the virus. Let me know if you need any materials for the collection.

Thanks!
___________________________________
John R. Dunn, DVM, MS, PhD
USDA-Agricultural Research Service
Avian Disease and Oncology Laboratory

If I need to put this rooster down (if he gets worse or suffers) or any other birds, I will try my best to do this. My roo was bruising badly from the one blood draw we did and I don't want to stress him further right now, especially since I don't have as much skill with blood draws as my very experienced vet.

 

[KAT Bird]

I understand about the blood draw. I asked my vet some questions about it because I didn't want to stress my birds either.

These were my questions:

"Is it difficult to draw blood from chickens? Is 2ml per bird a lot of blood to draw? Is heparinized whole blood, blood that is treated with an anticoagulant?"


And his answers:

"2ml can be tricky if the bird doesn't hold still. Sometimes we draw it from the jugular vein sometimes a wing vein depending on how much is needed. Heparin is an anticoagulant which keeps the blood cells from sticking together. "

 

[schnebbles]

my liquid tumeric came from the health food store and it was 13 something for a bottle. I guess it is pretty cheap if you are only giving it to sick birds, it would last a long time.

My chickens had a nice day, it was real sunny and a balmy 32 or warmer. I can't wait until it warms up and I can go spend more time with them again.

 

[Nambroth]

Just some new information in case it helps anyone else out in the future.

I got the lab results back on my rooster. The U of GA ran several PCR tests for me and they all came back negative for Marek's. This was a bit of a surprise to us, though at the same time, it does make some sense, given that my rooster has not gone downhill at all nor has he shown any of the other subtle signs I would have expected.

My vet and I discussed the chances of heavy metal toxicity, most specifically lead. There is a lot of lead in our environments, especially those of us living on old homesteads and such. Lead used to be used in everything, and it persists in the environment. She said even a single lead BB from lead shot would be enough to cause serious problems in a chicken sized bird if it ate it. Which, I am sure many of you can attest to, our birds will readily eat small rounded objects! There are a lot of seemingly innocuous places chickens can get lead, too, I have come to realize in my research!

Anyhow, in her experience she has seen lead toxicity cause very similar symptoms to some of the Marek's problems-- leg and or wing paralysis, stumbling, bad balance... partial or total paralysis of one or both legs, etc. It can cause similar lesions of the nerves, and the body can react by creating an immune response.

I only bring this up because I know some of us try to aid folks that experience paralysis in their birds, and they are unsure if they are seeing Marek's disease or not. I'd venture to say that lead poisoning is not as common as Marek's, but it might be important to mention it if it helps someone properly diagnose. Unfortunately, because it can LOOK like Marek's, the only real way to diagnose it is via lab testing of blood and/or x-rays... though x-rays are also problematic with chickens because it can sometimes be hard to tell the different between normal stones in the gizzard and metallic objects.
There is a treatment for lead toxicity though, which involves injections of a chelating agent to bind the lead together and allow the bird to excrete it properly.

Of note, if you suspect or see someone that suspects lead toxicity, and it is in a hen or food bird, beware that the lead CAN be passed on from the bird into its eggs or meat, so use care!

I have updated my FAQ to include heavy metal toxicity as a "Marek's look alike".

 

[BigECarter]

Are you going to test for lead/heavy metals? We suspected water issues with ours - the water fountain is still attached with a garden hose. But after losing 7 of 9 of our 1st flock (starting 2 weeks after their arrival), and (knock on wood) none of our second 9 (this time from MM - moved into coop before thanksgiving), the "probable Marek's" is looking more certain.

Of the babies, I have one that isn't as energetic as I think she should be. Ursula, the buff orp - my children's favorite.

Here are my two survivors, best buds and not too impressed by the babies.

And Ursula:

And most of the other babies:

 

[Nambroth]

Yes, we are running a lead test on my roo.
I really thought it was Marek's... And for a lot of people, sadly, it is. I will let you know what we find out.

Edit: His lead test came back NEGATIVE.

 

[BigECarter]

So, Ursula, my 17 week BO is in the infirmary. Nothing really wrong with her, other than that she is staying away from everyone else, and they are picking on her and keeping her away from food. I've been weighing her since Sunday and she is holding steady, 1.4 kg.

This is my first MM bird with the full vaccine to get sick. Not sure what to expect. And of course, she is my 7-yr old's favorite. She picked the name. Despite the cocci vaccine, this pullet had a bad case of cocci as a chick. Poops seem normal now. I may treat with corid anyways, just in case.

 

[BigECarter]

Ursula has lost a little weight - not much, but not a good sign given that she should still be growing. Her wattles and face have pinked up since being separated - the pullets are getting closer to egg laying. She is definitely weak - she was standing while eating with me sitting next to her crate. As soon as I closed the door, she plopped down in relief and kept eating. I will try to give her some scrambled eggs later today.

I really hate this.

 

[schnebbles]

I hope Ursula pulls through. I hate it too Your girls are cute!

 

[BigECarter]

Ursula is doing ok. Not eating much feed, but chows down on treats (tomatoes, eggs, etc). Her weight is down by 100 grams. She should be growing. I think her balance is getting worse. She seems happy and alert.

Are there any cases where a chicken can survive Marek's? I see anecdotal stories - are there any documented cases?

Mississippi State says some can survive. "Acute Marek's disease can be extremely rapid in its course, producing mortality in apparently healthy birds. However, in some cases the lesions may regress and clinically affected birds may make complete recoveries."

Guess we will keep on keeping on. Need to pay more attention to keeping her eating.

E