Not an Emergency...Marek's in the Flock

[ochochicas]

Luvn and Rebra
I agree with nearly everything you've said. In my experience, there are a lot of different signs the birds show and they can all be Marek's. It is easy to say the first one is an injury that causes limping, and maybe the second one was bad food or some kind of toxin. Meanwhile, the sick birds are shedding virus all over your farm and house.

My first bird to die was unthrifty from the start. I hatched her here, and she was tiny and didn't fully feather out until around 11 weeks. Around the same time we rehomed her brother, who was her best friend. The stress from losing him caused her to stop eating. That lasted a few days and she seemed fine for another month until the other cockerel we had started to show interest in her. Then it was limping and lethargy...the beginning of the end.

In the last 3 months I've lost probably 10 or 15 birds to Mareks. I've seen all of the following:
Minor limping, sudden onset "drunk" walking, lack of appetitie, in ability to roost (but runs and walks fine). right side leg and wing paralysis, left side wing paralysis, coughing, purple comb, open mouth breathing, blindness, seizures, lethargy, anorexia, desire to only eat certain foods (mostly chick starter, corn and scratch grains), low grade respiratory infection, excessive feather loss, impacted crop, and I'm sure there are more I'm not remembering. I had an 11 month old fat hen that limped for a couple of days and then I found her dead in the coop.

I think more people don't subscribe to the thread due to fear of being labeled or having their business ruined. They won't be able to sell chicks anymore if people know they have Marek's on their farm. I do think people need to disclose their status, but since Marek's IS everywhere, we all have it whether we know it or not. Some strains of the virus are worse than others, and some birds have better resistance. It is kind of luck of the draw if/when your birds will get a bad case of it.

Sorry for your losses Luvn. Thanks goodness there is a vaccine to help us all move on with this.

 

[mamidei]

mamadie,

I have no idea - is this the belly of the chicken?  not sure what I am looking at in the pic.
There is a skin version of mareks where the tumors are on the skin.  I've only seen one photo of that and it looked a little different.  Try googling skin tumors mareks and see if you can get some visuals.

Can  you describe your flock and this chicken's other symptoms?   

Thanks for taking the time to reply! This is the back of her neck. She's only about 6 weeks old. There really aren't any other symptoms. Googling it is what made me afraid it could be the skin version of Merek's. You are right, not exactly the same as the other photos online, but there aren't many. I just don't know how to treat it since it isn't a simple case of feather picked, irritated skin. I'm currently swabbing it with betadine several times/day. I'm usually not one to use antibiotics, but I will if this is what she really needs. I haven found anyone who has seen anything similar to this.

 

[rebrascora]

Hi Mamidei

That is really nasty looking! I have no experience of Marek's skin tumours, other than pictures I have seen and as you are aware it doesn't look exactly like it. If you are in the UK, I would try Camrosa ointment on it, as it is really good for inflamed skin conditions in animals. I doubt it is available internationally though. Good luck finding something that works and very much hope it isn't an obscure Marek's symptom.

 

[Nambroth]

Nope, just the statement from the avian state vet...and like I said in my post, he said they don't shed LIVE virus. Don't know if that means they shed dead virus or whatever, he just said not live virus

Interesting. Everything I've read/discussions with the folks that study this suggests otherwise. That, like other Herpes viruses, when the virus comes out of latency that the host sheds virus. As it can be difficult to know the difference between sub-clinical Marek's (in survivors) and other ailments (some common) it seems it would be very hard to tell if a bird might be shedding live virus or not. It seems safer to guess that at some point, an long-term infected bird will shed live virus.

As we still do not fully understand this family of viruses, it is safe to say that new findings are always expected (and welcome). I think the only thing we can all fully agree on is that Marek's sucks.

 

[seminolewind]

Quote:
Nambroth, I know we've talked about this many many times, and shared references. I have also only read from reliable sources that Marek's virus can be spread by any exposed bird whether old or vaccinated, if they are exposed.

Marek's doesn't follow many rules, and we've seen "Most Common" symptoms and "Least Common" symptoms. The virus "commonly" affects the sciatic nerve. However, I've seen it attack the wing nerves, esophageal nerves, pulmonary nerves, and neck nerves. There are just too many symptoms that Marek's can have that mimic other illnesses. I've also had older chickens succumb to Marek's. 3 were 18 months old. Most were 8 months and under.

Without a necropsy, or until the Necropsy, I would treat with multi vitamins, and anything else you want to and consider a toxin or mold or something they';ve eaten.

Ocho, I agree, some people don't want to lose business or not show any more. I read it in some breed threads. Others may just tell themselves that their chickens don't have it.

If any of one's chickens have been exposed to anything other than your own chickens, they can have it. It doesn't matter where you buy from. The only thing anyone can do is vaccinate un exposed chicks to prevent them from dying from tumors. It will not prevent them from being positive for Marek's or spreading it. Just possibly not dying from it.

 

[seminolewind]

Hi Mamidei

That is really nasty looking! I have no experience of Marek's skin tumours, other than pictures I have seen and as you are aware it doesn't look exactly like it. If you are in the UK, I would try Camrosa ointment on it, as it is really good for inflamed skin conditions in animals. I doubt it is available internationally though. Good luck finding something that works and very much hope it isn't an obscure Marek's symptom.

I have no idea either. Maybe someone picking? Bugs and rubbing? Itch and rubbing?

 

[seminolewind]

Then, any exposed birds who didn't die from Marek's may commonly have a suppressed immune system, and be vulnerable to illnesses that normal chickens have built resistance to. Like Cocci, and enteritis, pox, eye infections........

 

[Nambroth]

Nambroth, I know we've talked about this many many times, and shared references. I have also only read from reliable sources that Marek's virus can be spread by any exposed bird whether old or vaccinated, if they are exposed.

Marek's doesn't follow many rules, and we've seen "Most Common" symptoms and "Least Common" symptoms. The virus "commonly" affects the sciatic nerve. However, I've seen it attack the wing nerves, esophageal nerves, pulmonary nerves, and neck nerves. There are just too many symptoms that Marek's can have that mimic other illnesses. I've also had older chickens succumb to Marek's. 3 were 18 months old. Most were 8 months and under.

Then, any exposed birds who didn't die from Marek's may commonly have a suppressed immune system, and be vulnerable to illnesses that normal chickens have built resistance to. Like Cocci, and enteritis, pox, eye infections........

(emphasis mine)

I agree with all of this, absolutely. I am also very open to learning new things about Marek's. If new studies come out that contradict what I "know", I am happy to keep my mind open to science and adjust my mindset (and the FAQ of course!). Until then, I tend to err on the side of caution, though.

 

[lalaland]

I know a couple of weeks ago I thought one of the year olds was starting to be "off", but a day later everything seemed fine. Today, the only surviving little cream legbar hen, who isn't quite a year old, had that look. I watched her and had the chance to see her dropping - some intestinal lining shedding. Shoot.

I added corid to the water, had to leave. Got home, she was up on a roost in the coop although it was still daylight and the flock was still grazing. half full crop. I noticed she was kind of stumbling, losing her balance. I offered her water and feed, she wasn't interested. Offered her yogurt, and she ate quite a bit. I have her in the house in a kennel...why does this always happen when you can't be home to care for them?

It is the lack of a game plan and trying to figure out willy-nilly what the heck to do. I'm going to have to take a day off work so I can be observing her and decide whether she can do ok on her own for 12-14 hours while I am at work, or whether I need to cull her without being able to give her a chance.

It is very hard for me to cull a bright eyed hen - thats the weird thing about mareks with the tumors/ muscle/nervous sytem stuff. It seems to happen so fast they appear healthy except for the walking/balancing etc.

sorry for whining. I just hate this.

 

[ochochicas]

I know a couple of weeks ago I thought one of the year olds was starting to be "off", but a day later everything seemed fine. Today, the only surviving little cream legbar hen, who isn't quite a year old, had that look. I watched her and had the chance to see her dropping - some intestinal lining shedding. Shoot.

I added corid to the water, had to leave. Got home, she was up on a roost in the coop although it was still daylight and the flock was still grazing. half full crop. I noticed she was kind of stumbling, losing her balance. I offered her water and feed, she wasn't interested. Offered her yogurt, and she ate quite a bit. I have her in the house in a kennel...why does this always happen when you can't be home to care for them?

It is the lack of a game plan and trying to figure out willy-nilly what the heck to do. I'm going to have to take a day off work so I can be observing her and decide whether she can do ok on her own for 12-14 hours while I am at work, or whether I need to cull her without being able to give her a chance.

It is very hard for me to cull a bright eyed hen - thats the weird thing about mareks with the tumors/ muscle/nervous sytem stuff. It seems to happen so fast they appear healthy except for the walking/balancing etc.

sorry for whining. I just hate this.

If she is in the house where the other birds can't bother her, she'll probably be OK on her own. If she can get to food and water, she will eat if she wants to. If not, you can let nature take its course. We all want to do everything we can to save our birds, so I understand that. In the end, it is very draining on us. I went to extremes with tube feedings, antibiotics, supportive care, etc. and I've only managed to save one (she had an impacted crop so I'm not even certain it was Marek's to begin with).