Now what? A CYST?!?!?!

[threehorses]

Ok this may get complicated, and it's new (and very exciting) information that might applly to your kiddo here.

First, I highly suspect some sort of air sac infection (airsaculitis). There are many kinds, many causes, some scary, others not so. It seems when i was doing research, all I find are the scary MG related ones. There is no indication that this bird has MG and, given his absolutely sad state of health (which you're kindly repairing) if he did, he'd just flat die. So I'm ignoring MG related airsaculitis as a backburner item now and suggest that you backburner-it too.

Not that we should forget it - but there are other things that seem quite more likely.

Here's the weird part, and I should know this as my bird is experiencing it right now.

If there is a (get this) broken bone, particularly the humerus, the air can inflate the adjacent air sacs causing inflation. In the case of my bird (who had an amputation causing a forced cut of the bone which is leaking air into the adjacent tissue) this is supposed to cease over a week and deflate. Thankfully it's happening earlier.

Flock history: you initially suspected this baby as having a fracture. But I don't recall that it was the humerus. If you look at this skeleton, which bone did you suspect he broke:
http://www.krassesrudel.at/forumbilder/thecoop/figure3.gif

I just thought it an *extremely* odd coincidence that broken bones were brought up.

Now, in practical reality, one of the causes of airsaculitis is E. coli. E. coli is a coliform bacteria, present in all healthy birds in small amounts, but can be spread through feces, bad environmental conditions, and blooms in birds with depressed immune systems and bad caretaking. If any bird had those conditions, this little guy did! E. coli invasion of the air sacs sometimes result in a yellowed exudate within the air sacs. Do you see anything like this? (Of course that's probably observed through necropsy and we don't want to see a necropsy of this baby for another 10 years!)

Another issue, which wouldn't surprise me, is that aspergillosis also can cause this. Aspergillosis is a fungal issue, and often results in poor environments. Again - fits the bird. Though I think it's usually associated more with nodules in the lungs than the clavicular air sacs I believe you're seeing.

The problem is that if this is airsacculitis, it could have come from the bone and spread to the air sacs, or it could originate in the air sacs and possibly infect bone. I think he has other more pressing issues, but it would be nice to treat this.

Can you tell me whether this is new - this pair of airsacs, or do you think they've been like this the whole time you've had him?

The other issue is that to treat, what do we treat? We don't know the true causative agent. Aspergillosis is fungal and requires one type of treatment (and is a bit tough to treat), while E. coli or even another cause would require something different.

On other air sac issues, people deflate the air sacs. But do we do it with this one? Tough call. Because they seem to be paired (as the clavicular air sacs are indeed paired) I'm not sure that I'd want to make that call without a really good experienced avian vet. As he's improving, I wouldn't want to risk it.

Now - here's a shot in the dark. Both E. coli and the fungal Aspergilli are "said" to be effected by... get ready for this... cinnamon. There are tests that seem to indicate that cinnamon inhibit the spread of two of the common causes of airsaculitis.

This is just weird because a friend and I were JUST talking about using cinnamon in a case of birds who, despite testing, weren't found to have anything clearly bacterial. And we were talking about using cinnamon.

If I were you, I'd just take a shot and try adding a tiny bit of pure cinnamon into his daily mash. It seems the type of thing that must be long-term. It won't hurt him in small doses. It might help.

This is not at all the answer or information I thought I'd find, but without a causative agent to treat, and not wanting to stress this little guy further, that's what I would do if he were mine until we get more answers for him.

My brain hurts now.

I'm going to do something simple and non-taxing and let this soak in. But I'd love to hear what you think about the above.

Hug the little dear for me, please. I really want to see him get through this and be a stunning little guy.

 

[starting.from.scratch]

Wow. Thank you. I am sure many people who get freaked out by random poultry illness have decided they can pull through after posting on here.

I had 2 babies under the weather yesterday, so I didn't get the needle. (Or sleep, but that's nothing new.

)
Sooo...I think the area that is broken is between the tibia and metatarsus - the joint is swollen still on the left side of chick. The masses are on the right side. And I do think that the chick came with them, in retrospect, that's the first thing I noticed was that the Partridge Silkie I'd wanted so badly looked like a vulture, with no neck.
I'll try the cinnamon and put off the needle for now. What concerns me is the little one that died, seemed to aspirate itself to death, gasping and it's little tongue out - would that be an air sac infection at its worst? That was awful to witness. I would think if the others got a little cinnamon in them it wouldn't hurt either.
Thank you so much. I'll keep you posted.

 

[threehorses]

A tiny bit of cinnamon won't hurt the rest of them, either. It's commonly used in exotic birds for preventative reasons. I'm not sure if it would treat, but prevention (if it indeed works) wouldn't hurt.


OK, so the joint between the two bones to which you referred is commonly called the hock. I was reading up on skeletal manifestations of various diseases and deficiencies last night and found quite a few references to enlarged hocks as a sign of disease. But you're seeing this in only one hock, right?

The air sacs - that's such a hard call for me. I want to tell you to do it. There's no good of them remaining infected. But there's so pitiful little about HOW to do that, other than systemic antibiotics -and so we come back full circle to "what's causing this".

Really this is where a vet would be best, but it would have to be a real avian vet with a good open mind. I have one here in Houston - can I ship her to you?

And yes- the gasping could have been from other respiratory complications of the sort of bacterial or fungal issues that end up with air sac infection. It's probably related. They were just in such horrible conditions. Really every time I see them, it makes me want to just kick some tush! And it makes me wish I could come over there and help you out.

That's the one thing frustrating about the board - I can't just hop in my car (with non-chickeny clothes on and booties lol) and look at those babies. Ahhh well.

 

[starting.from.scratch]

First, THANK YOU. I really would have probably cried myself into a stupor without your help.

Ok, yes, the swelling of the leg, the limp, is only on the one hock. Now, the lady I got him from said that the others piled up on him and she saw him limping, so she stuck him back in the brooder box. For whatever that's worth.
Now, I went to feed them their little snacks of yogurt and yolk plus vitamin tonight. I also got the needle out. I stuck the needle in the sac between his neck and shoulder and tried to see if anything would come out. Just air. But before I did that, I did hear almost a crackling sound, both there and that side of his crop. So I did the same thing to the mass on his chest, and got air there too.

But...then I looked closely at the other birdies. The other Silkie (that I'm positive is a roo) has smaller masses, but the same places-And Sides as the ones on Limpy. It's possible I didn't notice earlier because I was noticing his roo-ness, or the fact he's bigger and more fully feathered. However, the spot on his chest, like Limpy's, is so swollen, there is not sufficient feathers on it. And sad, sad to say, the little Cochin that is absolutely crazy sweet, her chest has the same problem.

Same side too.

Is this just a crop problem? Maybe? Or could they all have air sac problems? the air sac is on the chest, yes? I've still got some Sulmet in the drinking water with Jello, so they all have pink feet.

Thank you for your thoughts and help. Yes, it is really hard not to flip out. My son has reflux terribly, and the journey in the car was hard on us all while it hurt him to go to this house to get these babies - it was a sacrifice of time, and just astounds me how little regard for baby animals a person could have. Come on to Jackson! We all smell like chickens now, I won't notice. My husband can cook-believe me, that's a good thing! (I'm better at caring for the babies than cooking)

 

[threehorses]

No that definitely makes it an air sac issue - and one that they're sharing. Whether it's because of contagion, or because they were all in the same environment, that's the mystery. But considering how they were kept, I'm not surprised. What worries me is WHAT is causing it. I'd be remiss in my chickenly duties if I didn't mention that MG is one such illness. But then again, so is E. coli, aspergillosis, M. synoviae. I think from the history now, it sounds like his leg was an injury. Let's hope she's telling the truth on that one.

All I've been able to find on treating airsacullitis is deflating it. I'd use caution, heating the needle ahead of time to sterilize it, cleaning the area where you poke with a q-tip with alcohol and letting that dry first.

When I've seen people work with air blisters (not an air sac, but a bursa) and sometimes with air sacs, they deflate it over a number of days daily and while it still inflates, it does less so daily as long as the causative agent is being controlled.

Let's hope that new environment is keeping it controlled.

It wouldn't hurt to get a bird tested - live, not dead, if you could. WOuld you consider that? I think ruling out MG would probably be a good thing with the little one having died.

Going through this all really makes me want to do something dreadful to the woman from which you got these babies. Whenever I'm typing or readaing here in this thread, I see their little faces and I just get really miffed at her. grrr

Hugs! I sure wish I could take you up on that offer!! You're a dear to try so hard with the babies, and actually care about them.

 

[Pine Grove]

All I can see is normal crops..there will be air in the crops when they drink to much water..the feathers indicate that they drank a lot of water..Were these chicks without water for any lenght of time?

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
I had assumed (<-- bad idea) that the crop was differentiated from these sacs... you do see the difference between the crop and these sacs, yes startingfromscratch? If not, definitely don't poke them.

I'm still a little leary about deflating them anyway. The crackling, if not the crop, is placed where the clavicular air sacs are. But...


Ahhh and so here we are again with the distance thing. It's hard to tell from pictures without feeling the babies and feeling their crop and then feeling these sacs in a different place.

As for the needle today, that won't effect the crop if it was the crop you were poking. A hole that tiny will close up quickly. But don't do it again unless you are absolutely 200% certain that it's an air sac or blister, and not the crop at all.

 

[Pine Grove]

starting.from.scratch :

But...then I looked closely at the other birdies. The other Silkie (that I'm positive is a roo) has smaller masses, but the same places-And Sides as the ones on Limpy. It's possible I didn't notice earlier because I was noticing his roo-ness, or the fact he's bigger and more fully feathered. However, the spot on his chest, like Limpy's, is so swollen, there is not sufficient feathers on it. And sad, sad to say, the little Cochin that is absolutely crazy sweet, her chest has the same problem.

Same side too.

I'd be concerned if they didn't have this air pocket..I've never seen a chick that didn't have, It shows up more on the wet silkied feathers..I'ts more pronounced when the crop is full or pressed against..completly normal....​

 

[starting.from.scratch]

Ok, I found an internal diagram that helped me...It does appear to be the clavicular air sac that has swollen on the right side of each of them. The mass on the chest almost appears to be on top and more to the back side of the crop, most noticeable on Limpy. I change their water 2x a day since they are always stepping in it, hence the pink feet. But it's a quart waterer and never gets below 1/2. Every time I check on Limpy, his chest is wet-because -I think-the mass gets in his way.
http://vetmedicine.about.com/gi/dyn...&zu=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_anatomy this is the link I used. Directly above C is base of neck mass-the clavical or the cranial thoracal air sac?
I am familiar with crops because of my Orpingtons-I periodically pick them up & check them over-the crop being part of that. Since they are doing well, I am familiar with what a healthy crop would be, even full, it would eventually go down to feel the chest or see the neck. On Limpy, neither has ever happened.
Thanks so much. I'm about to try to find a vet, just for peace of mind. I just can't stand the idea of them being uncomfortable or worse.

As far as that woman is concerned, I spent the first few hours with the babies being almost hysterically upset. It totally ruined the 4th for me. But I've learned that I don't need to wish her unwell. What goes around, comes around, usually worse. I feel sorry for her when that time comes.

 

[threehorses]

Good heavens ... I had replied to this and I bet I didn't hit send!

OK, if I remember correctly, didn't you find a pair of those on Limpy? The possible air sacs? I think that's one of the reasons that I had thought they were air sacs - that and they're filled with air, and that they seemed apart from the crop.

I found another diagram http://media.photobucket.com/image/poultry air sac/caladeniacottage/chookrespsys.jpg which makes me wonder if they're not the cervical ones instead. But then again i wonder if they are even air sacs now. (Looking for miraculous machine to transport me through the internet...)

OK I feel better about the crop/air sac thing. I actually lost sleep over it last night.

As for the vet, here's a list of certificed avian vets:
http://www.birdsnways.com/articles/abvpvets.htm

I know all three that they list for Houston and they're really awesome, so that's a good sign! They're seriously exceptionally awesome.

And yes - you're right about the woman of course. What goes around indeed always does come around. It does for me for good AND bad. lol So I'm sure it will for her. I just hope that she learns from this and just doesn't do it again. That would be enough really.