Ok.. so I'm not buying the whole.... Updated with pics...breeding hens

Discussion in 'Meat Birds ETC' started by Brunty_Farms, Jan 5, 2010.

  1. Brunty_Farms

    Brunty_Farms Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I need some input on people that have hatched their own eggs from Cornish X Rock hens... either they be crossed or with another cornish x rock rooster.

    Reason why... I've seen these breeders first hand and they are massive birds. Honestly they are no different than the ones we raise to eat except for the fact they are put on a diet. Secondly the breeders are only good up until like 50 some odd weeks so they don't last very long.

    Genetics is complicated but not that complicated. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a good meat bird crossed with a good meat bird... is going to produce... guess what? More meat birds.... I mean we do the same things in our backyard flocks just as the big commercial guys do in their laboratories? We breed for traits and go from there....

    I'm not buying into the fact that cornish x rocks don't breed true... I think the secret is management in feeding... They may not be 100% consistent to their parents but they are going to have compact bodies for one and way more meat than any DP. I don't see what the big deal would be.

    Anyone try this? Do you have pictures?
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2010
  2. Buster52

    Buster52 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I don't know much about genetics either. You might want to post a question in the breeding forum. That said...

    No hybrid will "breed true". You are going to get each trait from one parent line or the other, not both. You will either have the trait of the Cornish, or the trait of the White Rock, not both.

    Now, if those were both big, robust birds, that isn't necessarily bad thing. It might be worth a try.

    When I select my biggest Cornish as my parent stock each generation, they will continue to get bigger (up to a point), and they will continue to be Cornish, with the traits of that breed. That's the difference.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2010
  3. Brunty_Farms

    Brunty_Farms Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Well that's just my point. Your breeding the best of the best the whole way through. Your taking your best meat females to your best meat males.

    I think with time that you could eventually do the same with the cornish x rock chicks... over time you could develop a breed all in it's own that is sustainable. Neither bird looks like a white rock anymore... the only reason the white rock was thrown in there was to give the cornish some height. Making the breast meat longer but still wide. Both female and male parent lines look identical except for minor traits. I honestly think that it would be no different than any other DP breed. I have 5 hens right now that are wondering with my buckeyes in this frigid tundra and they are fairing quite well. Great body structure and they walk just fine... built like tanks but the real test will come when it's time for them to lay.
     
  4. pepper48_98

    pepper48_98 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I agree with you to a point. It may take a few years to get it the way you would like but should work.

    What about breeding from two seperate lines of meat birds? There has to be someone out there that has tried this, think?
     
  5. Lollipop

    Lollipop Chillin' With My Peeps

    Just a little insight as to why they don`t breed true. It`s a thing called "hybrid vigor" that you get from crossing unrelated birds, or any animal, or human for that matter. Most fowl are so inbred that you can`t get any to breed true. Now, if you introduce a Cornish cock, or a Rock cock to your X hens, then you sustain the hybrid vigor, which produces the desired result. Try it, you`ll see what I mean.......Pop
     
  6. Buster52

    Buster52 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Well, as I said in another thread, the grandparent lines are the key. The parents look like they do because of those grandparents. Never having seen any of these birds, I don't really know. It would seem to me the White Rocks would be comparatively light in the area of breast meat, though.

    But good luck with your project. It would be nice to see someone experiment with this stuff. A friend of mine here locally is going to be doing some of that, only he was able to obtain some of the parent stock.

    If someone were able to develop a breed that breeds true one generation after the next without some of the problems of CX, it would be a wonderful thing for sustainable local food movement. At least folks wouldn't have to ship birds in every season.
     
  7. Brunty_Farms

    Brunty_Farms Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I understand the whole concept of it and I get it... but I don't understand how they would be any different than crossing two totally different lines together. For instance taking a cobb broiler and crossing it with a ross broiler.... That would be the Hybrid Vigor that would be the same as crossing a cornish or rock roo over x hens. Except for the cross would be better as the body structure is almost identical. A rock roo, especially a DP is going to make it worse... Same with a standard Cornish Roo.

    Buster... the rock was introduced in the 50's... The current breeders both parent and gp stock are far from the original white rock we are used to seeing. Basically all that it was used for was the skeletal part of the bird... the meat came from the cornish. The longer and broader the skeletal structure.... obviously the more meat can be grown on that bird.

    This topic is starting to prove my point... so far It's all been hear say that broilers can't breed true or very close to true.... I have yet to see any documents or pictures to prove that they don't. I still strongly believe that over a period of maybe 3-5 years that you could develop a very good line of your own broilers.

    I used to by parent by products from hubbard that were from the female lines... The ones I bought were the males from the female line. However out of a few thousand chicks purchased I would sometimes get a female in the mix. They were fed like any other broiler and they did exactly what any other broiler did... eat and get big. The genetics are good enough for a backyard producer to be efficient with them. I could see how they wouldn't be commercially because to a point there would be uniformity issues. With everything being line assembled at the processing plant the birds have to be identical otherwise the machines wouldn't work.

    For us... I think a little bit of mixed weight is a good thing, as your able to stager your processing a little bit.

    I would love to see pictures of peoples crosses... if they exist.
     
  8. AHappychick

    AHappychick Wanna-be Farmer

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    I kind of thought the same thing too, why if someone was able to keep these birds alive long enough to breed why would the offspring not be meaties also?

    So am I understanding that you have a few meaties that you have been raising past their process age? if so are you doing a diet, asprin regiment or both?

    I would love to see this too it would be great to be able to make your own meatie [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2010
  9. deerman

    deerman Rest in Peace 1949-2012

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    If you breed the two breed together, birds get something from each breed. Like the wide breast and huge legs from the cornish.

    Now if you breed the crosses together, some will take after the cornish other the rock. This is the reason they dont breed TRUE.

    If you breed a rock or cornish back to the cross, then they will take after that breed more.


    Look at the peafowl,, spalding are a cross of blues and greens peafowls.

    If these are breed together, cant breed TRUE , because offspring down the line can LOOK like either side. You can never produce pure green or pure blues from these........so no they will not breed true.

    I have try breeding the Rock X Cornish cross together. First they eat more, have more health problems,(than pure rocks or pure cornish) and their chicks are a mixes of fast growing and slow growing,also size. Where the first cross of rock and cornish are most the same.


    So to breed true, all chicks would have to produce chicks like the parents. Can you still get meat birds from them,yes, but not TRUE breed. That why it is said they dont breed True
     
  10. petrelline

    petrelline Chillin' With My Peeps

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    I've actually had this same argument with people over hybrid vs heirloom tomatoes, with folks making the argument that you absolutely cannot save the seeds from hybrids because they do not "breed true," as if the opposite of "breeding true" means that you'll end up with something that isn't even a tomato (and thus, the argument that you have to either plant ONLY heirlooms or re-buy a hybrid every year). But I *have* planted hybrid seeds, and the vast majority are 90% close to the parent, with some loss of the original hybrid vigor -- and with a few years of selective seed saving, I've come close enough to the original to make me happy (and I have something that works well in my climate as well).

    I think the same is true of the CX: as hybrids, if you breed them, they won't breed true. Some of the chicks will be more cornish-y, some of them will be more Rock-y, and they'll grow out at different rates. But they'll still be meaties, and they'll still have the genetics for growing out big and fast. I lean toward Jeff's argument here -- as small producers we're not Tyson and we're not trying to produce 20 million identical chickens a year. We don't need perfect uniformity in the genetics. But 90% of the CX genetics plus sustainable? That would be awesome.
     

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