Old and Rare Breeds

[BKPUCKETT]

Yes, I have done it.

Walt

Sorry I was posting while you were Thanks for a straight answer.

 

[fowlman01]

1st Thanks for a straight answer.
2nd Sorry about OEGB someone used them as an example.
3rd I think most people know what double matting is if not we can discuss that later This is a discussion of the standard (acceptable or unacceptable) Using the example OEGB.and your answer (YES) this makes the Standard acceptable. If there is a breed or verity that is not possible to produce Blue Ribbon birds both male and female with single matting then the Standard is unacceptable and should be rewritten. That is my opinion and that is all we have here is a place to discuss opinions.

The Standard describes the results of good breeding.....different folks arrive at the best bird they can in various ways. Double mating is a way to do it and it is generally for color only. The SOP has some difficult to attain goals, but does not ask for anything that is impossible. That would be wrong/unacceptable or whatever one would like to call it. Just about everything that needs to be rewritten has been addressed many years ago. It does change as new breeds are accepted and there are a few quirky things that need to be corrected, but it does not ask for anything that can't be done........it has all been done by breeders. As an example of some of the things that need to be fixed is that the black Asil, Wheaten Shamo males are not recognized for some reasons........things like that......nothing like asking for something that is impossible to create.

You should get one and if you do, read the first 40 pages and you will know a lot more about pure bred chickens than most folks. It tells you how the breeds were made, what the color should be and how the body parts should look, but does not tell you how to breed.....and forget what you used in breeding other animals, as it probably won't work with chickens. This is what causes some confusion amongst people starting in chickens after they have raised and shown other animals successfully.

Walt

 

[BKPUCKETT]

The Standard describes the results of good breeding.....different folks arrive at the best bird they can in various ways. Double mating is a way to do it and it is generally for color only. The SOP has some difficult to attain goals, but does not ask for anything that is impossible. That would be wrong/unacceptable or whatever one would like to call it. Just about everything that needs to be rewritten has been addressed many years ago. It does change as new breeds are accepted and there are a few quirky things that need to be corrected, but it does not ask for anything that can't be done........it has all been done by breeders. As an example of some of the things that need to be fixed is that the black Asil, Wheaten Shamo males are not recognized for some reasons........things like that......nothing like asking for something that is impossible to create.

You should get one and if you do, read the first 40 pages and you will know a lot more about pure bred chickens than most folks. It tells you how the breeds were made, what the color should be and how the body parts should look, but does not tell you how to breed.....and forget what you used in breeding other animals, as it probably won't work with chickens. This is what causes some confusion amongst people starting in chickens after they have raised and shown other animals successfully.

Walt

When you say(possible) if you mean (possible with Single Matting) then we agree

 

[fowlman01]

When you say(possible) if you mean (possible with Single Matting) then we agree

Yes, it is possible with a single mating.

w.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Honestly, I didn't read anything that wasn't very straight forward. LOL, I've been accused of lots of things but a lack of straight-forwardness/bluntness was never one of them

Can we get an "Amen"?

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I don't get it either.

Culling is a very important part of breeding. If you don't know what to cull, you are never going to excel at it.

Walt

I would add that it's important not to hatch more than the infrastructure can house well, but do, indeed, fill that infrastruture up.

The great thing about the hatching in number is the culling. What a drag it would be to walk out to a dozen young pullets hoping to find the best 6 knowing that only one or two are great and then the rest are the least among the other evils?! Now searching for 6 pullets from among 60--now that's fun.

 

[cubakid]

I would add that it's important not to hatch more than the infrastructure can house well, but do, indeed, fill that infrastruture up.

The great thing about the hatching in number is the culling.  What a drag it would be to walk out to a dozen young pullets hoping to find the best 6 knowing that only one or two are great and then the rest are the least among the other evils?!  Now searching for 6 pullets from among 60--now that's fun.

I do breed for quality, but for excelling and improving you must hatch quantities, to increase the odds. I hatched 80 white cubalayas last season. For my set up this isnt so bad, but as YHF said, dont hatch more than you can successfully raise. I kept two cockerels and four pullets. I got rid of the only cockbird I had, because he would not help improve anything. Putting my best two hens into the breeding pens and breeding again. I'm getting 3 dozen a week and 100% fertility. I can do this yet again and keep the cycle going breeding large quantities to pick out the cream of the crop to produce even better birds the next season.
Of course not every breed variety or strain needs this. I have well refined strains of bantams that when a bird hatches there almost isn't a reason to cull. The bad properties have been bred out, but to the extent that fertility was lost. I'll be trying a strain cross to try and help the fertility. Some birds also breed well and have few problems needing culling, so less numbers are needed. I don't have any of these so I like my numbers to pick from. I love walking into a barn of 30 cubalaya cockerels, it's fun handling each to see the things I have improved in that generation, or the things I didn't, and need work this coming generation. Add on a good 10month growth period to see a true star, and feed to keep development and muscle up, and you have yourself a lifestyle, not a hobby. The hobby side ended after I got into the "arts" of breeding. Knowing and understanding are two different things. Knowing what bird to put with what to improve your birds is one thing. Understanding what about the two birds is producing good offspring is another.

Of course there are YES or NO questions, but it helps to understand why, not just know.

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

Something I've noticed about hatching birds in numbers and keeping a closed flock with my phoenix, is that you really get to know what your birds are. We started with a small group of phoenix bantams, silver, golden, and light brown. We mated all the colors together and hit a bottle-neck last year with the population. We always line breed and know what to expect from them. Well, a couple years back I hatched out a white cockerel that lived (normally the whites were weak) so I mated him back to his silver mother/grandmother to try for more white and silver. Instead, I got some pyle colored birds and also plain silvers. I have never had an issue with yellow skin in this flock but last year we hatched out 5 birds with yellow skin/willow legs.
Like I always tell people when they ask how we get such good birds- hatch lots and cull hard, it's the best way to improve. Way back when we had buff laced polish, we started with chicks from a hatchery. Within a couple generations we had birds that were winning top largefowl at decent sized shows on the coast just because we hatched every egg we got and culled down to the best 2 trios per season and bred from them.

I know neither of those are old/rare breeds (well around here anyway) but I used my experience as an example

 

[gjensen]

My dilemna is not how many to hatch over all, but per mating. I am evolving into pair matings, and at most mating trios. I do not like not knowing who is throwing what. I can't settle with that. I can't make sense of it, and I want more control.
So what I am trying to get a feel for is how many to hatch per mating. 5 does not seam to be enough to test a mating. It seams that 16 per mating is a better number. Maybe 12 is enough?
If my flock is established, and I have 16 females that could turn into a lot.

So the question is how many per mating? That is if you want to make good, solid, steady improvement.

This year, with the Catalanas, I want to grow out around 72 from three pullets. 24 each gives me a little hope that I will come up with one that resembles an ancestor from farther back. That and I have some egg trades planned. It definately looks like I will get over the hundred mark. I have over half that in the brooders now.

 

[saladin]

Geo,

The old timers use to say that if you want to progeny test a pair then you should hatch 20 chicks from that pair. The thinking was that most anything they'd throw would come out in those 20. I have always felt this a good general rule to live by when breeding chickens.