Opened a Can of Worms I didn't want to!!! I need some horse advice.

[Celtic Hill]

Okay, So. This is the outline of owners best to my knoledge

Breeder
Owner One, (Want's horse back, Has papers)

Owner Two A, Owner Two B,

Owner Two B takes horse out from underneath Two A, and Gives to Owner Three

I buy from owner Three this makes me owner 4.

I Contact Owner 2A and she is sooo happy I own her and she has great care. - I have in writing.

I bought this horse knowing there is no papers, but papers were out there. I was cool with that until my trainer (a year later) informs us that 1. We have 4th level potential, and 2. We can qualify for year end awards.

You want paper work? I got plenty of paper work and book keeping to show. Because i was under 18 when we bought the horse my parent's paid of her. Both my parent's were there, we paid in cash. I can always get a bill of sale because owner 4 is a good friend/4-H leader.

The registry can't do much because I don't have any info on my mare. BUT we are getting her dna tested and as long as I can prove (which im 96.9% sure I can) who the sire is, I can fill out regular registration papers and have her registered. Easy as that! - So I guess once that's done I will be in a better position?

 

[welsummerchicks]

If I interpret you properly, horse was legally sold to Two A and B.

Then horse was GIVEN to owner 3. Perhaps one of the Two owners didn't like that. but no legal complaint was ever made against it.

You bought horse from Three.

I still do not see anything illegal. Further, I see no point in any of the transactions where anyone has taken any legal action.

Horse was sold to Two A and B.

Given to owner Three. But one of the Two's didn't like that. No legal claim or action ever taken.

You buy horse fair and square as far as you know. AT THIS POINT, NO ONE has made ANY claim horse was stolen or not legitimately sold.

Let me tell you what Owner One is about, with this 'wanting the horse back'.

They want you to pay a lot of money for the papers.

That's going to be my guess. Don't want the horse back at all. Want YOU to send THEM money for the papers.

They see a chance to make some money on a horse they sold down the hill.

Have your horse DNA tested, and most likely you get the papers.

And...sorry, but I think your horse has potential rather further than fourth level.

THAT'S the statement I'd dispute.

Years ago, Big Name Warmblood Farm in Canada, went broke. They had dozens of weanlings, dozens of yearlings, dozens of young horses - many of them had never been touched or halter broke. They had stallions. Broodmares. All sorts of stuff.

They didn't feed or bed the horses for a good long time. Just stayed up at the house. The pasture kept horses ate grass til it was gone. The stall kept horses at the wood in the stall walls. The manure built up higher and higher. Some of the weanling's backs were scraping the ceilings.

Then the owners disappeared.

The provincial government took over the farm. Brought in their experts - farriers, trainers, riders, grooms. Spent months cleaning up the farm, taming (AND I MEAN TAMING) horses, breaking them, training them, grooming. Sent a dozen or so foals with hopelessly deformed legs to be put down. And had a huge auction.

Standing room only. It was a mob scene. People just jammed in, lots of the horses sold. Some of them were still so wild they were 'walked out with a ring' - a group of 30 or so people join hands and form a large circle round the youngster, and quietly, slowly walk out to the ring, with the terrified young animal slowly step by step walking within the 'ring'. Then they let 'em loose and people bidded on 'em.

The farm was auctioned off.

About six months later, ad advertisement appeared in the Chronicle of the Horse magazine. It was the former owners of the farm.

They'd wound up somewhere in Virginia, I think. And they said in the ad, how they were working SO hard to straighten out all the horse's papers, and the papers for each horse would be sold, just for 'handling and administration' charges - fifteen to twenty thousand dollars each horse, according to a pal who made the call.

LOL.

Don't get scared to death quite yet that you are going to lose your horse.

Just sit tight, relax, and get your DNA test done.

If ANYONE who previously owned the horse contacts you, just tell them you are not taking any action at this point. NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAY, don't provide them with any information, especially information about what any of the other former owners think, feel, or are doing. Just be very polite and tell them you're 'taking down the information'.

And DO take down the information.

If anyone actually takes any substantial action, it will need to be in writing, on a lawyer or govt' letterhead. Just be calm and cool and put on your poker face.

You won't need to consult a lawyer until someone takes legal action.

And I will bet you a very nice lunch you never have to consult a lawyer.

 

[lockedhearts]

Yep, DNA test and costs for registration, no big deal. Do that . Breeder "wanting" her back and having claim to her are 2 different things. Personally, and I know a thimble full about dressage, sounds like the breeder knows what potential this horse has and is trying to get something for nothing, or going to try and hold the papers over your head for cash.

 

[WoodlandWoman]

Was the sale between the first owner/breeder and the second owners legal? Was there any problem there? Like a contract that said if the second owners ever wanted to sell the horse, the breeder had first right of refusal or the horse wasn't completely paid for? Does the breeder just want to reacquire the horse? Or do they think they're the legal owners for some reason? Did they say?

 

[carolinagirl58]

All sounds fine unless the transfer between breeder/owner A and the two owner B's wasn't legal. Maybe they had not finished paying breeder for the horse, which is why they didn't have the papers. If that's the case, it does not matter that you have a bill of sale because it wasn't their horse to sell. Just a possibility??? I sure hope not.

 

[welsummerchicks]

Sorry, but first right of refusal is NOT a legitimate part of a sale contract.

They don't hold up legally, so just forget about that.

Generally, they are verbal agreements. Not that verbal agreements don't hold up under the law(sometimes), but two points:

1. it is X's word against Y's that any such agreement ever was made.

2. They aren't legally binding. They just aren't, even if in a written, signed, witnessed contract.

When people write contracts, they tend to think that ANYTHING they put in that contract, because it's written down, is going to be legally binding.

Not so. In fact, the wrong statements in the contract could nullify the entire contract. And clauses that aren't binding, you can put 'em in a contract til the cows come home, they STILL won't be binding. The law only enforces parts of contracts that it deems valid to put in a contract in the first place.

If any one of those people REALLY wanted that horse back, they would have tried to take some action long before this.

Keep in mind that keeping horses these days is expensive, and getting a couple grand out of you for registration papers is a heck of a lot cheaper way to make some money.

ALSO - don't EVER discuss your horse's worth or potential or your excited plans for it, with anyone except very close and trusted friends and your trainer.

It's a big bad world out there, buddy.

Again, my guess is that neither of 'Step Two' are going to press a case. If they even tried to, I doubt they'd have much ability to cooperate as co-owners and make anything happen. 'Three' is happy because they got money for a horse they got for free.

'One' is forseeing far, far easier ways to make money than getting their horse back. That carries a lot of risk. Convincing you they have some sort of leverage over you is free, and so is the check you write them.

Just keep cool. No matter what, keep cool, and don't do anything EXCEPT get that DNA test done.

 

[fl_deb]

I know I am getting older but I find it heart breaking that the world has come to horses, papers, tack and anything of value is contrived in such a manner as to extort money in any way imaginable from others seen only as possible purse strings.

Jeeezee, when I was a kid, my best friend and I boght our horse, no papers, and sold him the same way. Oh how things change.

 

[welsummerchicks]

Nothing has changed. Horse sales have always had a lot of legal issues around them, and people have been trying to get extra money for papers since registries began.

I don't buy a horse - I don't even take a FREE horse - without getting blood drawn to be tested for sedatives and painkillers, I don't buy a horse without xrays and a pre purchase exam and a negative coggins from the last 6 months in my hot little hand, and I don't believe ANYTHING a seller tells me unless I can prove it beyond any shadow of a doubt through other more official sources.

Otherwise when you buy a horse you are exposing yourself to a potentially dangerous animal who could

1. be carrying a contagious disease that could cause all your horses to be required to be euthenized or put in a lifelong quarantine
2. injure or kill you, your children or visitors or passers-by or do extensive damage to your or other people's property, making you liable
3. require months or years of costly veterinary care and not even be able to GIVE it away
4. not even legally be sellable - you could lose every penny you spent on it (a BIG reason for buying registered animals with legally transferred papers)

Horses have always been expensive (Two hundred dollars used to be a lot of money) and have always brought out the scheming in some people. Read Ben K Green's 'Horse Tradin''. It was written a very, very long time ago.

You just didn't happen to get exposed to it when you were a kid.

 

[cafarmgirl]

Quote:
And that is the bottom line. You need to be very clear about what went down in this transaction between the first owner/breeder and the second owner or owner's. If money was owed her that was not paid then it doesn't matter where that horse has gone in the meantime, she still has the right to it. It seems odd that the horse was given away by owner Two B? Something just sounds strange there if this is a well bred, papered, showable animal.

If all is in order as far as purchase between all these parties and she simply wants the horse becasuse she hold's it's papers, well, she doesn't have a leg to stand on. Need to do a lot of backtracking and find out what all went on if at all possible.

 

[welsummerchicks]

I don't know. Just because they didn't get the papers doesn't mean they didn't finish paying. A lot of sellers sell for less with out papers.

The transaction that sounds iffy, actually is from Two to Three.

I seriously doubt that Two A and Two B really had a formal ownership arrangement or a contract between each other to conduct any sales in a certain way - so that would fog up the winshield a little bit.