Organic and Economy

[farmerbrown]

AHappychick
If I ever said I was organic or ate organic I want to apologize for this and I need to know where I posted that I was so it can be fixed.
We are natural farmers and try to eat natural food.


Bossroo
A ductless heat pump is more or less a window unit that they cut in half. One part is in your house and the other is outside with the wires and lines running in between. There good for 1 room and dose not look like a box is sticking out your window. They will need to put a hole in the wall, 2 copper lines from the inside unit to the outside unit, solder it all up and charge the system. I’m sure you would need to run new wiring to feed it power. More or less it’s a mini heat pump for a room or 2.

 

[AHappychick]

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this is what made me think it I am sorry if I offended you somehow.

 

[farmerbrown]

I’m not offended in any way. I just don’t like to miss lead people.

 

[Mac in Wisco]

"Organic" means many things to the average consumer. Many feel that it is healthier for themselves, many feel that it is healthier for the environment, many feel it is more humane for the animals. Others buy organic because they feel it is the "in" thing to do...

The lack of hormones comment is a bit off. Hormones are not used in production in the U.S., even for non-organic products. USDA certified organic does mean that pesticides and synthetic fertilizers aren't used in food or feed crops. It means that animals aren't given antibiotics or synthetic medicines. It also means animals are raised in a more humane manner, i.e, no cages for layer hens, pasture for ruminants.


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I have recently ordered 2500 organic pullets to go into production in the fall. Yes, they will come from organic parents (although not required by the standards). They will be raised from day one on organic feed. Bedding is not required to be organic unless they eat it. For example if you mix chopped alfalfa into deep layer straw bedding to get them to turn it, the alfalfa needs to be organic, but the straw not necessarily so. (Although organic straw is very common where I will be doing this). The birds will be floor raised with access to dust bathing areas indoors and access to pasture, weather permitting.

Organic feed must be processed at a certified organic feed mill. Just as there are standards for production there are standards for processing. The eggs are sent to a certified organic processing plant where they are washed, graded, sorted and packed, by people certified to do organic egg processing.

The entire process is a completely separate production system from conventional methods. From seed to feed and chick to egg to market, the methods ensure the entire production process maintains its organic integrity.

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Kudos.... to whomever raises and produces organic food. But for the most part the industry is corrupt, it's a way for people to take advantage of the average consumer.

So what, that the feed for layers and broilers is organic.... so what, that the feed came from an organic mill. Under USDA standards organic is what the animals consume, it's not how they are processed and it's not how they were raised.

Say for example 10 people are put in an elavator? You are given organic feed from day one. But you have to live on this elavator for 6 weeks. It's your bathroom, kitchen, living room, and bedroom. I don't care how organic the feed may be, your living conditions suck to the point of insanity. How long can you eat organic food while living in this elvator and still remain healty?

The point is organics in poultry require the nutrition to be organic and that's it. Organic feed for chickens does not justify the living conditions they are submitted too. Our government has alowed this to take place.... for one reason... money. Organic chicken (even though a niche) still allows big growers to grow chickens conventionally and still call them organic. It's all about the money that is generated. In my opinion organic chicken is no different than normal chicken that is raised by industrial poultry tycoons. It's an inferior product to home raised / pastured poultry and is a slap on the face to the consumers, who many pay $4-$8 / lb for chicken and $4-10 for a dozen eggs. (many people raise organic poulty like the way they should.... but most of the industry takes advantage of it and the USDA allows it) It's not going to be very long until places like Tyson can use pastured poultry in their marketing....

There is a fine line between organics and conventional when dealing with meats. Produce and other food stuff is a little different.

 

[farmerbrown]

Mac in Abilene

It depends on what standards the organic broker used. There are so many brokers that all meet USDA standards according to the USDA. But if you look at multiple broker requirements side by side with the USDA and you would see why I say this.

Yes you’re right they can use antibiotics but there is a short list that they can use. Synthetic medicines would be considered natural. Yes a publication by William Withering I think it was 1783 says it was organic but this is wrong by the true standards.

I disagree about there bedding. It would have to be organic or would have to prove that they did not poke at it with there beaks and did not contain any non organic chemicals that would off gas or could be absorbed into there feathers or skin.

I could go on and on about a true organic farm operation because I took some classes on organic farming, visited organic operations, 100’s of hours of research I put into it, and was about to start the process to become an organic farm.

Yes there is some stuff that has changed but I do not believe it has become that laid back in 15 years. If it did then I need to put my goats and cows under it and could sell them for 3 times the price I do now. Better yet I could start a pee clinic and sell it as an organic product like William Withering. I think the homeless would pee in a cup for a cold beer what do you think?

 

[Mac in Wisco]

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That is not correct. Organic feed is only a portion of the equation. As I said in my first post, the USDA organic standards also have stipulations as to animal welfare and how they are processed. Caged layer operations are not authorized under organic standards, layers must have access to the outdoors. Ruminants must have access to pasture. Broilers are another matter though. There is not much you can do for a broiler in its short 6 weeks of life. You can give them access to the outdoors, but their job is to eat, gain weight and be slaughtered. While pastured poultry sounds nice, they are not ruminants, and putting them on pasture is more of a manure management issue.

Organics is not just about the end product and what it does or doesn't contain. It's also about the millions of acres of cropland that haven't been sprayed with pesticides and man made fertilizers and general management practices that are better for the environment.

 

[Mac in Wisco]

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Yes there are certifiers that manipulate and use loopholes in the law to certify large, corporate operations whose bottom line is another dollar, but on the flip side there are a large number of family farms that have only survived because of the premiums that organics have brought. There are many organic family farms in the area of southwest Wisconsin where I am from and they have built their own alternative industry around it. Organic grains are grown all around, there are several certified feed mills to choose from and through the local cooperative everybody has made this work. They have literally built their own alternative industry. Organic pullets are raised in local barns under contract to the local feed store and are sold to the layer operations. The organic feed from the local mill is raised on farms all around me. If I want organic straw or hay it is laid up in barns all over the area. Not to mention the network of enterprises that support the organic dairies in the area...

The organic cooperative I will be a part of really takes the high ground on how they interpret the organic standards. They want the organic industry to work. It is their bread and butter and they want the consumer to trust in their product. Not only you do have to be independently certified, but if you want to market through the co-op, they also send out their own contracted certifying agents to ensure that everything is up to their standards in addition.

Besides a younger generation getting into organics, their is also something to be said for the large number of long time farmers that have been drawn to organics because of the premium prices. While they have always wanted to be good stewards of the land and were concerned about animal welfare, the methods they have used in the past were passed down from previous generations whose practices may have been questionable. They just didn't know how to implement better practices, they felt they had to do it as they were taught. The organics movement has provided a motivation for them to seek out alternative methods and has provided them with the resources to make it happen.

 

[Mac in Wisco]

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Jeff, I just visited your website again. I've been there before and admire what you have done, but I do have something to say about your disparaging comments about commercial organics.

Selling pastured poultry involves a much more eclectic consumer than your average supermarket shopper. Direct marketing is a challenge. While the National Organic Program isn't perfect, it does provide a venue for the organic producer to move his product into the supermarkets and have it identified to the consumer as a value added product that meets certain minimum expectations. Expectations for it to be a more environmentally friendly, unadulterated, more humane product as set in the NOP standards.

While you have your specific local market, there are many that rely on the USDA certified organic label to make their market. You are not in competition with them, you have a distinctive product with its own merits. While the actions of some big-ag outfits in the organic industry have tainted the program somewhat, there are many that are devoted to upholding true organic standards and have the family farm riding on it. Don't make it any harder on them.

I find your claim of "better than organic" a bit strange. Most I find using that term have some point of contention with the NOP standards, whether it be they find the standards lacking somehow, the cost involved, or just general government interference, they adhere to their own strict organic program and use terms like "better than organic" or "beyond organic". I assumed that to be your case, but you site didn't go into any of that and I can only assume you are feeding them conventional feed. While your product is touted as better in the matter of more humane conditions for the animals, it misses in the fact that your feed was produced in the conventional manner, with the use of pesticides and synthetic fertilizers, that aren't necessarily environmentally friendly or may be passed on in the product itself, all of which are issues that are taken into account with the USDA Certified Organic label and the National Organic Program.

I don't find the majority of the industry to be corrupt or out to take advantage of the consumer. My experience has been with hard working families who are trying to make a go of it, not unlike yourself.

 

[farmerbrown]

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Yes there are added hormones to beef and dairy cows to make them produce more.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/fact_sheets/Beef_from_Farm_to_Table/index.asp :

Hormones may be used to promote efficient growth. Estradiol, progesterone, and testosterone (three natural hormones), and zeranol and trenbolone acetate (two synthetic hormones) may be used as an implant on the animal's ear. The hormone is time released, and is effective for 90 to 120 days. In addition, melengesterol acetate, which can be used to suppress estrus, or improve weight gain and feed efficiency, is approved for use as a feed additive. Not all combinations of hormones are approved for use in all classes of cattle. Hormones are approved for specific classes of animals only, and cannot be used in non-approved classes.

Mac.
Do you think I should trust you, the USDA, my eyes as I watched them put in a hormone implant into a cow, or the thousands of web sites that are out there?

http://stockholm.usembassy.gov/Agriculture/hormone.html :

The hormone levels in beef produced using growth promotants are well within the range of natural levels of these hormones. Beef from a bull (which is not castrated and to which hormones have not been administered) contains testosterone levels over ten times higher than the amount in beef from a steer (which is castrated) that has received hormones for growth promotion. Since the European beef market is predominantly bull-sourced, while American meat is steer-sourced, American hormone-treated beef generally contains lower levels of hormones than most European beef.​