Organic and Economy

[patandchickens]

Quote:
I don't understand what your point is here.

"The manner of our forefathers" IS organic! Massive reliance on industrially-produced fertilizers and pesticides only really started about a hundred years ago, most of it dating to more like fifty or sixty years ago.

Crops dependant on major continual inputs of fertilizers and pesticides have *ruined* many regions' abilities to provide food for themselves, which they were doing pretty adequately before the Green Revolution swaggered on in.

I do not get the impression that you are very well acquainted with what organic gardening/farming actually involves. It is NOT just a matter of not spraying; it does not necessarily involve poor yields; and it actually works real well for many people and in many parts of the world. Always has, always will.

IMO, high-petrochemical-input industrial farming is the 'fad', not organics

Pat

 

[Rosalind]

Quote:
Agree w/ that. My relatives on Dad's side are Anabaptist (Amish & Mennonite). They definitely see livestock as exactly that, livestock. The concept of "pet" is just not there. And many run puppy mills, partly as an extension of seeing all critters as nothing more than livestock.

That said, when it comes to raising organic fruits, veggies, grain & hay, and managing a dairy herd or poultry flock with extreme efficiency, there is none better.

Bossroo, can you explain what you're talking about a bit better? What do the Israeli settlements or illicit drugs have to do with anything? I'm confused, I thought we were talking about pre-1920s agriculture?

 

[zephyrcreek]

Well I do not plan on raising "organic" meat, but I am following "natural" methods. The rural area that I live in just does not have the $$$ to make it worth my time. I already use raised beds in my vegtable garden, and no sprays or pesticides. I compost all our manure, kitchen items, paper, and yard wastes. Last year I even started our own herb garden. This year I am planning to expand these items and have enough to sell.

Our chickens, ducks, and rabbits will be raised on the most "natural" feeds I can find. The poultry will be free ranged. It might take a little longer to reach weight, but so much better for them and us. While I wish that my family could be "organic" it is just not possible right now. We have been starting slow, and taking one step at a time.

Ellen
Zephyr Creek Farms

 

[dancingbear]

Quote:
Ok, the Amish drive buggies on paved roads here, too, I was talking about the roads in their community. If they go outside of it, of course they're on public roads.

Do you really think those horses and buggies really do all that much damage? Could it be that's just what you're assuming does the damage? I've ridden horses on pavement, (not since I was a kid, though) I never saw a hoof break asphalt or concrete. My dad, my sister, and I rode in a lot of parades, hundreds of horses going down the street. Never heard of any damage to the roads because of it.

18-wheelers do a lot worse. That's why some parking lots are restricted, and don't allow big trucks, even if they have enough room for them. All that weight tears them up. Cracks the asphalt. Then water seeps in, and when it freezes, it tears up the road. Maybe that's the damage you've seen.

My DH is a truck driver, the cost of maintaining paved lots with those big trucks on them all the time is pretty high. The pavement doesn't hold up. The lot at the place he works for is gravel, for that reason.

I've never seen a parking lot posted to ban horses and buggies.

 

[ninjapoodles]

Quote:
Pat is my hero.

I will echo the sentiment that it's about SUSTAINABILITY, about diversity, about the future of farming to feed people. I'm sure that some sort of life could be sustained on nothing but petrochem-grown, GMO corn and soybeans--indeed much of American life already is--but at what cost? I'd rather be the ant than the grasshopper in this fable, thank you very much.

Also, I personally don't care a hill of beans about the "organic" label as far as the USDA is concerned. What I DO care about is getting to personally know the growers of my produce and meat and dairy animals, knowing what their farming methods are, and making INFORMED choices about what I feed my family.

 

[Brunty_Farms]

Ok, the Amish drive buggies on paved roads here, too, I was talking about the roads in their community. If they go outside of it, of course they're on public roads.

Do you really think those horses and buggies really do all that much damage? Could it be that's just what you're assuming does the damage? I've ridden horses on pavement, (not since I was a kid, though) I never saw a hoof break asphalt or concrete. My dad, my sister, and I rode in a lot of parades, hundreds of horses going down the street. Never heard of any damage to the roads because of it.

Yes, they make huge trenches where the horses walk and where the steel rims hit the pavment. The lines are on the sides of the roads where our tax dollars paid to have a seperate lane for them to drive on.

To me this is crazy as yes they are public... but they are public to everyone that pays into the system.... Amish do not. They tear the roads up, and my money has to help fix them. I wouldn't have a problem with it if they didn't try to cheat the system. They use public roads but don't have to pay to use them? How does this happen? Think of the millions of dollars that it takes to fix these roads and to put a 8 foot addition on both sides of the roads for our saftey and theirs. I'm not complaining about the additional road on the side as it is a pain in the neck to have to wait behind them when they go up a hill. My concern is, how is it fair that they are exempt from taxes?

I don't know, I have mixed feelings. I know some really nice honest amish people. Then I know some really dishonest ones too, that would screw you in a hearbeat if they could. (It goes this way with any group or race of people as I just can't pin this on Amish). But everyone else pays their taxes. There are a lot of americans that use the land to live off of... and do it in an honest way and pay taxes. Just because they drive a car makes them have to pay taxes?

One more thing to think about, just because they are Amish doesn't make them honest or trustworthy. They are hidden from our government and usually don't abide by any of its rules. So they think they are free to do whatever they want whenever they want. If you go into an amish feed mill here in Ohio you will see all kinds of antibiotics, pesticides, and fertilizers. Just because they are Amish doesn't mean they don't do these things. Whose going to stop them? So they sell all of their products at the local farmers market/auction and tell all of their customers that they were organicaly grown.... How are they going to to know? They hide too much from the outside world. They get away with it because no one ever says anything.... who is going to stop them?​

 

[Bossroo]

Here is just a sample of my neighborhood. The metro area has a population of about a million people.There is a large Hmong population in town. Some of them were farmers in Viet Nam and now lease 5-20 acres of land and raise vegetables for the locals from their roadside stands. There are 9 that also raise strawberries. Every one of them covers their fields with plastic and fumigates them with methyl bromide every winter. Entire families of up to 20 people (stoop labor) will harvest the berries every morning ( staring at 2 am) to sell the berries that day to the grocery stores as well as their roadside stands. You see ,without methyl bromide there wouldn't be ANY growing any strawberries as the nematodes will have destroyed the plants and all of their efforts will have gone for naught. That is their cash crop for the year each spring, the other vegetables only keeps them busy and only provides for a very meager living. One of my friends leases 2 acres to a single, 32 year old fellow, a college graduate and former computer programmer that wanted to live the simple life. He lives in a 20 foot trailer on it. He built a greenhouse and raises organic vegetables intensively. He works 12-16 hours a day year round and sells his organic produce to several restaurants and teaches organic farming methods on the side. He managed to make about $14,000 on his venture last year. On the flip side... one of my neighbor's son in law farms and custom harvests soybeans on the west side of the San Juaquin Valley. Last fall he harvested 2,000 of his own and 47,000 acres of other corporate farms soybean crop in six weeks . My next door neighbor owns a small trucking company. His fleet of 23 trucks+ trailers hauls tomatoes in early summer starting in Southern Cal. and ending in Northern California until Oct.. His trucks run non stop 24 hours a day. The tomatoes are processed and canned and made into National brands of tomatoe pizza paste, catchup, and other products. 4 miles from my place there is a 700 acre Navel Orange orchard. The owner employs 6 workers full time, and in 2 weeks there will be about 100 migrant workers picking oranges for the next 2 weeks. His oranges are shiped to National markets. In my county, there are Almond,kiwi, Lemon, Nectarine,Orange,Peach, Pistacio, Walnut, etc. orchards by the hundreds of acres. Grape vinyards as far as the eye can see. The farms hires thausands of migrant workers as well as hundreds of permanent workers. There are thausands of acres of range land with thausands of beef cattle. The county just south of us, produces more milk and cheese than the whole State of Wisconcin. Each dairy has from 2,000 ( small dairy) to 47, 000 cows., 10,000 is the average. Cows need to be milked twice a day in modern milking parlors and need to be fed twice a day ( corn,soybean, barley, silage and alfalfa hay)in HUGE roofed but open sided barns with misters and fans blowing for their comfort, or they will let you know about it, so the owners employ more than a handfull of people.

 

[Rosalind]

Thanks for sharing, Bossroo!

My neighbors consist of 50 acres of wildlife conservation land and 30 acres of what the state considers "farmland preservation land," on which my neighbor raises 20-30 head of pastured Galloway cattle and some sheep. On t'other side, there's a mix of old and new saltbox houses on large lots, many of these having chicken coops in the yard. About 1.5 miles through the houses, there's a rod & gun club's hunting preserve, where my venison & trout comes from. About 3 miles down the road, there is a large state park where I go fishing. Another mile past that, there's row after row of hoop houses, where a local hydroponic grower raises tomatoes, basil & lettuce year-round. He supplies the local farmers' markets and Whole Foods.

5 miles in the other direction is an organic pick-your-own orchard with many hard-to-find heirloom varieties. They use whatever doesn't get picked to supply the farmers' markets and Whole Paycheck also. In fact, I've got some Macouns right here that are theirs. 8 miles east, there's an apiary that supplies honey and bees to the region, and they loan out their bees to the pick-your-owns in the spring.

Nearest dairy is 15 miles away, I'm afraid--New England isn't exactly known for its great dairies. But, we've got oodles of maple syrup manufacturers, even in the suburbs: even the local universities tap their trees every spring. Also more blueberry farms than you can shake a stick at. Most of our local farmers make a living by supplying the restaurants and by selling CSA shares.

Now, where I grew up in PA, you couldn't move without tripping over an organic self-sufficient farm, most of which were commercial-scale dairies with a veal/meat business on the side. Some also did fruit and veggies for the local farmers' market and restaurants, but not commercial scale. Back in Ye Olden Dayes as now, farmers make more money by selling food that has already been processed than by selling raw materials to the processing plants; my relatives long ago figured out that you can sell a cow carcass for $0.25/lb to Hormel et al., or you can make it into roasts and summer sausage and charge $7.00/lb to customers who will eat it up and beg for more, so raising meat and cheese was more profitable than selling veggies.

 

[ninjapoodles]

Quote:
I'm not a 100% purist on the produce I buy (our local grapes have usually been sprayed with fungicide, for example), but strawberries are one of the ones I will not compromise on. But I have had no trouble finding an abundant supply of beautiful, locally grown, chemical-free strawberries. I still have several quarts in my freezer, and this spring I will buy another year's supply to freeze.

True, the berries are not as big as the repeatedly-sprayed mega-farm's down the road from me. But having done a side-by-side taste-testing, I can promise you that they are far more delicious. Flavor, texture, and aroma are all more pleasing in the non-sprayed berries.

 

[dancingbear]

Quote:
Never said it did. The ones I knew were very nice. They were also good stewards of the land.

I try very hard not to make sweeping generalizations about any group of people. But if I do make one now and then, I'd rather err on the side of being kind than being critical. Not that I always manage it, but that's what I try to do.