Orpingtons - An ocean apart??

[hinkjc]

Off of the top of my head, I'd love to have answers to the following questions:
Is one bird heavier than the other? Is there less genetic dilution in one line over the other? Are the standards that much different?? What are the goals of each group? What are the advantages of breeding the two lines together?
but would hate for the forum to become a dry place of people answering questions. Let's make this a dynamic discussion of the qualities that make us love the Orpingtons!! So, if you are breeder, could you also tell us why you enjoy the Orpingtons? and what characteristics do you personally breed for?

I know what my personal feelings and experiences are on which is the better option when it comes to maturity, productivity, fertility, meat quality, longevity and all of the heritage aspects of the breed (as William Cook set out with in his original development) but I'm not sure what good sharing that would do. Every person will have their own personal feelings about their birds. There are many more types of orpingtons out there than just American vs UK. There are birds bred specifically for production and others bred specifically for showing. Even these birds have differences that make them less valuable to one person, but more valuable to another. And for those who try to breed to the heritage traits, well they fall somewhere in the middle I suppose. It's all a matter of perspective and personal preference. Just because a bird has meat qualities or egg laying ability does not make it an orpington, just like all bantam crested birds are not silkies. There are many more factors involved than any one in particular. I think they're all beautiful and have their unique qualities, but my preference is to keep or get them back to what William Cook envisioned for this breed when he introduced it. In my research, I am finding that the UK has gone far from that path and the American birds are a bit closer to it.​

 

[syble]

Quote:
Thanks justuschickens and Sybil....input is always welcome.....I'll wait until around December and take a look then again at my Orpingtons and my Jersey's.

You may have to grace your jersey's even longer, i seam to recall a breeder saying they take 2 years to fully mature. lol

 

[ChickenAlgebra]

Have English hens who are 3 years old and lay 5 of 7 days, no problems with fertility with a good roo, the extras make good meals. Cross to a sweet but meh type JG for good, steady layers, starting year 2, girls are perfect.

 

[ChickenAlgebra]

With APA standard - which is worse - a hen with slightly heavy feathering, but otherwise to standard or a hen with standard feathering, meets standare EXCEPT hen is 6 lbs. DD had that last year, her fluffy hen won hands down, her Orp/JG pullet was 2nd.

 

[lildinkem]

Quote:
Walt you are correct. I read in this Reliable Poultry Journal, and posted the chapter that clearly pointed out that the English were using Cochins and the US was equally using Plymouth Rock a 100 years ago. Both sides had their preferences. And even today some US Orp breeders go outside the breed to get features they prefer to alter their line. You can see some US breeders who have used Orpingtons in their Australorps. I believe Bruce has some Aussies which are close to 15 lbs and are better examples of Orps then Australorps.
To help with your point, here is a pic of my Buff LF Cochin hen. IF you pluck her leg feathers off is she a UK Orp? In the same pic is one of my original Buff hens that I got from a local friend and some would say she has excessive fluff. When I got her and her sis's I was told by the gentlemen who gave them to me to test breed them to my most horniest cock to make sure they were fertile. I did and took them to a 1/2Australorp mix Meyer hatchery Black cock and kept one of their offspring. The one I kept wound up being 11 lbs at 11 months old. I used him in a test breeding back to my 1/2 Pontious and 1/2 Moore hen and produced this Black cock.

Can use see the same bunny tail on him as the ole Buff Orp hen? She is his granny.

 

[justuschickens59]

Quote:
So, what you are saying is that the APA HAS been approached to change the SOP to British Standards? When did this happen? I'm just curious, because the last time I spoke with Sam Brush he told me that the APA HAD NOT been approached regarding changing the standard. I guess I'd just like clarification on this because this subject just keeps coming up over and over again. If, in fact, the APA has been approached, then I can understand this conversation going on and on. However, if the APA has not been approached, I guess I don't understand why people continue to beat this subject like the proverbial dead horse?

So my question, has somebody approached the APA officially requesting to change the APA SOP or not?

Thanks !!!

 

[fowlman01]

Quote:
Walt you are correct. I read in this Reliable Poultry Journal, and posted the chapter that clearly pointed out that the English were using Cochins and the US was equally using Plymouth Rock a 100 years ago. Both sides had their preferences. And even today some US Orp breeders go outside the breed to get features they prefer to alter their line. You can see some US breeders who have used Orpingtons in their Australorps. I believe Bruce has some Aussies which are close to 15 lbs and are better examples of Orps then Australorps.
To help with your point, here is a pic of my Buff LF Cochin hen. IF you pluck her leg feathers off is she a UK Orp? In the same pic is one of my original Buff hens that I got from a local friend and some would say she has excessive fluff. When I got her and her sis's I was told by the gentlemen who gave them to me to test breed them to my most horniest cock to make sure they were fertile. I did and took them to a 1/2Australorp mix Meyer hatchery Black cock and kept one of their offspring. The one I kept wound up being 11 lbs at 11 months old. I used him in a test breeding back to my 1/2 Pontious and 1/2 Moore hen and produced this Black cock.

http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx94/lildinkem/018-2.jpg?t=1300568259

Can use see the same bunny tail on him as the ole Buff Orp hen? She is his granny.
http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx94/lildinkem/019-7.jpg?t=1309037664

The buff Cochin could not be a UK Orp, because it has the wrong color legs. I assume you are talking about Bruce S. His birds do look like Orps, but they are in such good condition most judges seem to overlook it. Several years ago he did have the proper type, along with the correct backline of the Australorp. I guess he lost that somewhere along the line. I find we have a hard time grading our own birds....and that includes me. This is one of the reasons I show. It is not only the judge who is looking and placing your birds, it is also your peers. Most breeders will give you their opinion and then go with the concensus. It is probably correct. By three shows you pretty much know where you stand in the breed/variety.

Again...there are crosses that I would not do for my own reasons, but I don't care if other people do it. Anyone who crosses breeds should tell any buyers what they have done and what may show up as a result of that cross. I know of a X bred bird that won Best of Show at a very large show, so you can't tell what a chicken has in it by looking at it. Ten judges thought it was the best bird there....and it was visually.

Walt

 

[lildinkem]

Walt you are right. The Buff Cochin does have Yellow skin under them feathers. I have seen on some UK websites Orps with yellow skin and know some Orp breeders here in the states who have had a chick pop out with feathered legs. So you know where that is coming from.
Bruce according to a Canadian friend does have about the best Australorp program around, but this was a few years I was told this. I know Doug Akers had a pleasant surprise last summer at our Indiana State Fair when he shown a true genuine Australorp cock which won the show. That bird was not a 15 pounder, but more close to the standard. I think he was the first true Australorp I seen at any show I attended up to that point. But I am new. And I am sure their are others.
One thing I keep seeing coming up in this conversation is people who compare true Exhibition UK Orps to US hatchery quality Orps. And make comments about how much bigger the UK Orps are. "DUH!!!!!" Ofcourse a well bred Orp of any country is going to be larger then a poorly bred US hatchery Orp. For the most part all most see at the county fairs is hatchery Orps. That is why I insist we all go to the Crossroads Poultry Show and see what a "WELL" bred APA Standard Orp looks like side by side with the few UK breeders birds that I hope will show. I am getting the feeling now from many different sources that we prolly will not have that opportunity. And we will ONLY see our APA Standard Orps at Crossroads. This will continue this argument for more years to come and keep the myth going on how much bigger the UK Orps are compared to our BEST APA Orps. Since I do go to some of the bigger shows I already have the idea what to expect at Crossroads, but if in fact some UK style Orp breeders show their birds I would enjoy to see how they do against our BEST APA breeders.

 

[fifelakelooper]

Quote:
Thanks justuschickens and Sybil....input is always welcome.....I'll wait until around December and take a look then again at my Orpingtons and my Jersey's.

fifelakelooper, I'll try to get some progression pictures of my Splash cockerel from when I received him at about 4 1/2 months old to where he is today at almost 8 months.

Thank you!

 

[aveca]

I just think it is a matter of preference governed by APA and UK standards. heres the thing..over on youtube, there is a champion market champion blk orpington, thou it says in thier standard absolutly the chest of these adult birds should be round, absolutly never flat,that birds front is an ironing board..beautiful as he is first thing I noticed about him..he did have that what I heard one brit call, a tidy look for a fluffy bird, i take to mean a good organization of feathers and tail feathers..at leat that was what I took it to mean, and boy are you right about australorps, many US blk orps would be better shown as australorps..some go over weight limits but the lighter ones could be as higher quality australorp.

here is an example below..first the hen , she was given to me as " a giant australorp" well there really is no such thing..shes an american orp..way too big and thick..I have a freind who tried to show these giants out as australorps but was angrey when they got shot down at the show..the judges are pretty keen and its a tightrope..its required that they keep a slightly tighter feather than the very loose feather of these so called giant australorps. this one came from superior poultry when they went out . her feet were huge so I was kind of afraid offspring with aussie rooster would be feet too big for the breed like my freinds.Then I have seen a few blk orps that could win an australorp class.

this is my australorp rooster

this is the result of the cross. a little sloppy in the feather but over all closer to australias version but with tons of room for improvement .
I just keep picking away at this. I am going to show her as what she is to me..australorp I wont blow dry this one, it will only make her fluffier

...I have wanted blk orps forever and to me hink-jcs are stunning birds..there are a lot of stunning birds in here. that classic eye on one cockeral I got from her walked right out of an old english lithograph. I just couldnt be happier with what makes my eyes happy.I know what I like and I want blk orps , over on bid bird or whatever that show bird auction site is called there is someone with brit orps, must say the whites are the best I have ever seen, they sold real high.. but the blk orps look like they are folding in 1/2..almost like squirrl tailed..must be from infusion of langshan at some point..I didnt care for them at all, wouldnt spend a dime on them even if they were the latest faddish craze. somone else might just love them..not for me . thou they have that drape that all but brushes the ground.we can jump onto any fad but just know what really pleases you.


this is a string of aussie hens at last years show..Im hoping this pullet will be as good as these..but as you can see Im heading little more toward the modern aussie.

sorry there were no blk orps there and I think I saw one or 2 buffs..Im taking one, but you never know what will be there, this year there may be 15 blk orps..you just never know