Orpingtons - An ocean apart??

[HallFamilyFarm]

We are not opposed to the Uk Orpington per se. Just any changes in the current Standard of Perfection.

What is wrong with the American type Orpington that we must add UK blood and change it?

Some of us are just suggesting that the UK Orpingtons lines be kept seperate from the American and that after the five years/five breeders, that the UK Orp be entered as a distinct and seperate breed.

I am curious how many Orp breeders still have pure American type Orpingtons without any UK blood. I know of possibly 3 or 4 Black Orp breeders that have not introduced any UK blood. This from what I have read on various forums and the BYC "Imported English Orpington" thread. The same thread where several posted their desire to change the SOP.

I attended the 2010 APA National in Shawnee. There was a large exhibition of Orpingtons. Even the sale pens of Orpingtons looked nice. Anyone who ever owned a Terry Britt Orp in any color would never want to change it. We are expecting a huge display of Orpingtons at the Arkansas State Fair this year. Most will barely fit in the show coops.

At Crossroads there will be the largest exhibition of Orpingtons in modern times. Please bring the UK Orps and allow folks to see, once and for all, the differences in the two Standards.

 

[lildinkem]

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Jim I have been keeping up on this thread. You are the only one who said the APA should have the UK as a new breed. You said the first post raised that issue. I read it and do not see WHERE they mentioned UK as a new breed. You are the only one who thinks ALL USA Orps are pure. Farthest thing from the truth. Many breeders breed in Plymouth Rock, or Australorp to Buffs & Blacks. What decides what is an Orp is a jugde at an APA sanctioned event. Even then they are only going by the characteristics of that particular birds. One made a great comment about going back to foundation breeds. I see no problem there either.
Far as breeding UK to APA Orp. So, what! IF one has great size and type the other has great tails, proper color and adds the Andulusion lacing gene for the Blues. And they make a bird which has ALL the qualities of an APA Orp, more power to them. 99% of everyone here in this discussion will not show their birds. For those who sell, I think it is the buyers responsibility to ask the proper questions. IF you do not ask the heredity of the bird do not expect the breeder to tell. I always ask the buyer what they plan on doing with these birds. IF they say just want eggs, I tell them who of my flock lays the best. not always it is a PURE Orp but MAY look like an Orp. The one Buff Orp/Black mutt mix I used last year produced 2 of my 3 best Black Orp cockerels from last year's season. I used one with Julie's 2 Black Orp hens. One of those hen's pic is on Feathersite. My one Black Orp breeder told me that is one fantastic Black Orp. And wanted to know where she came from. She is not pure UK nor APA Black Orp but a combo of the two. Julie has done well with her birds. Another poster here made a great comment. That Doug's best New Hampshire is a combo of his German lines and his ORIGINAL APA lines. I know this as fact. He told me so. So mixing two different lines does work. You have to be diligent in breeding and need some luck. But it can be done with success at APA Poultry Shows!

 

[aveca]

Thats correct, imports were big around the turn of the century and interbreeding went on to bring the best traits together..You instinct and eye tells you what traits you want to keep and what to throw out...The brits had a real problem with flat chests on thier birds too low to the ground for size and in one of the great orp books posted here said that the americans were actually doing a much better job of mixing they would keep a rooster that was slightly smaller but the best quality over some of the bigger but less correct roosters . then they would bred the slightly smaller roosters to massive good framed hens and the results were so much better..

I was the one who posted about Doug acres,and he saw tons of room for improvement in delawares the tails were squirrel and a mess..where he found those german new hampshires I dont know but he should be titled master breeder if he isnt already.the thing that was so remarkable was not only was the tail barring greatly improved more rythem to it and I saw what he was thinking..the better tail of the german girls would give more uniform barring and spread to the fan..just stunning. So if your careful you can blend but choose the best traits of both .as ray connor said use your rooster as your base, and what do you want to correct on him find hens that compliment that .. Ray connor is 17 time world champion aussie breeder who also kept and showed several other breeds. Like that old book said, they might have kept smaller more correct roosters over bigger one, bred to big correct hens and the complimets were flying from both sides of the pond.

 

[fowlman01]

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Well, I dunno, Walt. You know more about chickens and type than I will ever learn in my lifetime. I sorta thought they looked like (type wise) some of my Coronation Sussex. I have no idea about SOP on Sussex, or on Cochins, for that matter. Just what I was seeing with my untrained eye today. My Sussex are just huge, just like my English Orps. My cochins (I have only 3) are of good size, too, but I doubt they will ever be as large as my Coronation Sussex. I just love BIG birds, and I imagine that is one reason I love them so much. My Jersey Giants, Coronation Sussex, and English Orps all have my heart. I love them!


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I guess the problem is that most on here have not seen a really good US exhibition Cochin. They are not just big, they are huge too. They are easily as big as the UK Orps. If you see hatchery Cochins, they will not look very big or impressive.

Everyone should go to Crossroads to see what is really out there in terms of size and type as it relates to the SOP.

 

[fowlman01]

Quote:
Walt, didn't some Cornish breeders try arguing to change the Cornish standard at Shawnee because of the lack of a pearl eye in the UK standard and no pearl eyes in the US birds? Yet someone had some pearl eye Cornish in their truck at Shawnee.

Glad you mentioned Ralph Brazelton. He had to hang up on me once because he had hens in trapnests that needed to be released. His Orpingtons would produce 200+ eggs per year and still meet the SOP. It was an honor competing with at the shows. I would sell everything to get some of his line. Well, almost everything. Would you trade Jacob for a trio of Ralph's line Buff Orps?

I have a question Walt..of corse the standard is the thing to live by. , heres the thing..Doug acres mixed up german new hampshires and delaware, he won nationals with resulting pullet..he wanted to correct a few things and he did it..the new hampshirees which were foundation bird of delaware breed, germans took the breed , made a better tail on it and doug wasnt afraid to introduce a foundation breed back , delawares needeed a shot in the arm so to speak, you know what I mean you have been at thier thread..dougs really a master breeder I think, he does what he knows he needs to do to get a result, he had it in his mind , if I add the perfect german hampshire tail back into dels , well the result was a WOW ..My question is this, when I TALK TO FREINDS IN AUSTRALIA LINDA AND BRYAN, AND SHOW THEM what I have they correct me and offer advise on australorps , first thing they said was """tails too big...fix it.""I said with what? they said you need to add the foundation back in, dont mess with langshans like australia did , they got red between the toes, serious fault so best not mess with that make a mess a bigger mess, best to add the foundation to correct tail issues..the aussie rooster I have is from east coast champions bath NY..my hens are pretty much trash, I do have a couple BOBs both fair shows and APA. ..blk orps are the foundation on wich australorps was built..is that what you mean by mixing breeds? cochin is foundation breed for orps and a few brits said they infused it back in to neaten up the tail and add bulk..they were unafraid to correct a problem .is that what you mean by mixing breeds?I dont think that its worth arguing whos are better UK or US. EACH have different climatic conditions owners needs ect..someday austalian breeders may turn to us or UK breeders and vise versa..australians I think are almost evolving the australorp way beyond what it was intended as a monster egg layer with lots of curves, they are loosing thier curves and getting a V shape too short necks ect..
right in the book that somone just posted in here, 1812 I think, the breeder who wrote it said he did same thing kept his head down and charged forward threw this and that into the pot showed, won and got orders from all over creation the next year..he said 60 years of trial error and lots of experience in show ring.

I tend to lean toward american blk orps, the good ones. I dont know, over all I leaned back toward that expression I saw on that page in US SOP. I am working toward a bit of aussie down under, but Im not going to make the great bird of curves look like a V like they did .look on thier site they are more ball than curves or V shapped. but Im not going to quit at this and wait for somone to make a decision for me..Im going to keep at it and I am pretty happy with what Im getting ., there just are not many of these real australorps here they are on endangered list. if they need a foundation shot, they shall have one.

the australorp was created as a project to increase egg production, blk orps had terrible low number of eggs for a while and needed to improve it. I like projects as long as they are practical.and keep to standard..sometimes something needs a fix...things always evolve thats life, sometimes for better sometimes for worse..the standard gives a base to build on. I didnt see that much of a drastic difference between the 2 standards, fashion dictates and fads come and go

I have a lot of respect for Doug Akers. I don't know him, but whatever he is doing he has good results. Again...I don't personally want to cross breeds, but other people do it and have successes. The German NH's don't look like a different breed than ours, so they would work well with dealing with Del problems. The Brit Orps look like a different breed and in fact they seem to admit that there is Cochin blood in them. They don't match our SOP description of an Orp. I guess that is the bottom line and even that makes no difference if people don't want to show them.

Walt

 

[lildinkem]

Doug is the best around here. He is VERY reasonable in price for his quality birds. He sold a trio of NH's a month ago for $30. How can you beat that? He gave me for "FREE" 6 of his Buff Orp chicks. All were vacinated for Mareks and one of the males has an enormous head. He is a national treasure for us Poultry enthusiasts and I agree that everyone IF they can should attend the Crossroads Poultry Show. Then we will know what "HUGE" means in an APA orp.

 

[aveca]

you can get the orpington book by the origional foundation breeder william cook at cornell for free download for your kindle or just download the kindle for you PC or lap[ton, he highly praised the breeders who worked on his orpingtons and mixed the 2 .he said "thats what free men do"..he said it isnt the show ring that dettermins the outcome of a breed because sometimes the worst tasting, worst egg laying birds wind up to the show champions, its the backyard person who feels a practical application like a smaller comb to ward off severe frostbite of exceptional egg layers. he did sort of praise the show ring for setting a standard but it does nothing to encourage egg laying and shape and color in any way attached to the birds..he tells storys of how the regions of england had thier ways, they used terrible tasting terrible egg laying birds called barn door chickens they just were not robust when they got ahold of his orpingtons they were thrilled with what he had done ..he even has a section on how running poultry out in trimmed pastures and orchards improved the orchards greatly cause the birds were beyond healthy and the moths and caterpillars and other bad buggs were reduced in numbers and fertilization for the trees ect...its a great book and long but very interesting.

 

[fowlman01]

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I'm not sure why anyone would say that. A person has to read the whole SOP. The first 39 pages addresses all of the issues in bold. Most folks only read the part about their breed and miss the most important parts of the SOP.

Walt

 

[justuschickens59]

If the British have used Cochins in their Orps (and it is my understanding that they have), it has resulted in a howling success !! The UK Orps are beautiful birds. As Bill mentioned previously, the American Orp is not "pure" either. Maybe that would be a great topic for discussion? I'm still trying to figure out why it is a problem that I haven't seen a good exhibition Cochin? I haven't found that to be a problem at all.

The UK Orps are here in America now (YAY), and people are importing more colors all the time. The UK Orp is also gaining popularity pretty quickly. I know that I could sell every egg, chick, young bird, or adult bird that I have - and for a nice price, too. However, that is not, and never has been, my goal. Since a couple of the top breeders that have been mentioned in this thread have inquired about obtaining UK Orps, they must like them, too.

As far as the APA SOP - I'm not sure why this seems to be such an issue for some people, since the APA has not even been approached in regards to trying to change the SOP.

Bottom line - the UK Orpington is exactly that - an Orpington !! Some people don't like the UK Orp and some of us don't like the American Orp; it doesn't change the fact that they are BOTH Orpingtons.

 

[aveca]

Quote:
I'm not sure why anyone would say that. A person has to read the whole SOP. The first 39 pages addresses all of the issues in bold. Most folks only read the part about their breed and miss the most important parts of the SOP.

Walt

You can read it in william cooks book for yourself free for download...eggs are not show as examples with the hen that laid them. Tase examples of breeds are not incuded in your tour de poultry show thou I have had australorp on the grill..yum! I think you would enjoy that book Walt..long but very good ,something like 3 thousand pages, indepth, a section on conditioning for show as well and selecting , culling. I think I can go back and post the source at cornell for you.. he even gets into the moths controled by chickens that are detriment to orchards ect...I kinda agree with him..He said they are both based in same foundation, after the devide brits added one thing , US added another otherwise there would be only one version.