Our introduction to keeping chickens, the high's, the lows and pics of our journey.

[Bens-Hens]

Right. No breakfast still.

As for the late vaccination, I have not found any supporting results. I have found a few people that have done it without damage. I think for $20 it is worth a pop. For me, I had to buy 1000 doses from the other side of the country, then have them cryo shipped over (live HVT) mix and inject. Cost about $190 plus sticks. Was too much cost for a maybe for me. We did however make the expense when we were hatching from the incubator, just four older birds missed out.

I am treating them as my early warning indicators since they are most susceptible.

I had also read that wynadottes get hit hard too. We lost two of ours.

Worst that could happen is you loose $20, best that can happen is no more birds get sick. Worth it mate.

Might be worth adding though that once you start, it's best to keep the vaccination iof new birds going. Once MD is in the flock they will most certainly be carriers (with no signs/symptoms) and new non vaccinated birds can be struck down, even if you have not had a case in a long time. i hope that makes sense!

 

[ozexpat]

Right. No breakfast still.

As for the late vaccination, I have not found any supporting results. I have found a few people that have done it without damage. I think for $20 it is worth a pop. For me, I had to buy 1000 doses from the other side of the country, then have them cryo shipped over (live HVT) mix and inject. Cost about $190 plus sticks. Was too much cost for a maybe for me. We did however make the expense when we were hatching from the incubator, just four older birds missed out.

I am treating them as my early warning indicators since they are most susceptible.

I had also read that wynadottes get hit hard too. We lost two of ours.

Worst that could happen is you loose $20, best that can happen is no more birds get sick. Worth it mate.

Might be worth adding though that once you start, it's best to keep the vaccination iof new birds going. Once MD is in the flock they will most certainly be carriers (with no signs/symptoms) and new non vaccinated birds can be struck down, even if you have not had a case in a long time. i hope that makes sense!

an interesting article

http://www.shagbarkbantams.com/page21.htm

 

[NovaAman]

I love that site. I have it on my desk top, but hadn't seen this page!

 

[Bens-Hens]

Thanks for the link, it was interesting to read. I agree with pretty much all of it, especially mixing the birds. We have mixed vac and non vac birds. Seems pretty common that people think you can't mix them, or if they have the live HVT they are automatically carriers. I think the confusion comes from that you don't know if they are carriers, so people just assume the worst.

I don't mean to offend Oz, it's just my opinion but there is no supporting info for mature vac in that article. I know that person does it, but it's not shown a test of x,xxx number of birds or blind testing or statistics. It shows that one (very bright and experienced) person uses that method and has reported no foul. I know plenty of people do it, but I have yet to find a conclusive study that goes against all the vac producers recommendations.

I have a plethora if links to share. I have saved a heap, and I can't see why anyone would want to read them all, but I will throw them out anyway with a brief description.

I will try include a quick cliff's for each site.

First up, Hypercium, or St Johns Wort. (we tried if with no result, but others report a recovery.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/135247/st-johns-wort

This thread was one I posted in. It had some very good info from another member about vitamins, they sick bird Charlie was given them and a recovery was reported. Not certain if it was MD though.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/797211/hurt-foot-or-something-else/20

This one is the USDA Research Service. Has a wealth of info about the vaccine, strains and also has a very good image of the eye.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/ar/archive/jul01/marek0701.htm?pf=1

This is the Euro vaccination producer (and paint maker lol) DuPont. A very good link with some great info. It is specific about in ovum or day 1 vaccination, as early exposure to the disease over powers the vaccine and renders it useless.
http://www2.dupont.com/DAHS_EMEA/en_GB/news_events/article20080828.html

This one is a mind melting read. I really had to chew through it, but in short it talks about the amount of strains they think there are, how it is evolving and a TON of scientific gibberish.
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2011/412829/

This is the Queensland governments site, and I feel gives and excellent over view of the disease, but unfortunately is very blunt with management.
http://www.daff.qld.gov.au/animal-industries/poultry/diseases-and-disorders/mareks-disease

This one is another experienced breeder who writes about their views. They are pretty strongly against mature vaccination, but they do not provide any scientific reference to how they have come to that conclusion. gives good descriptions of the nerve, viseral and occular versions of the disease.
http://www.thecuckoopoultrystudofaustralia.com/mareks-disease.html

This one is a great read (snore) from the Institute of Animal Health in the UK. It has some great data in it, but is long. Again, t talks about in ovo or day 1 vaccination. It does nto say anything about harm to older birds, but does say that the vaccine will fail should the bird have early exposure to MD.
http://www.oie.int/doc/ged/d9316.pdf

I have no idea who wrote this, the reference they give is for the University of Michigan, but the link does not work, so I can verify that one. They also give a good over view of the disease, but they support mature vaccination as a booster after the day 1 shot has been given. It does also say that the birds need to be kept separate from mature birds until approx 24 weeks.
http://www.examiner.com/article/how...mareks-disease-michigans-small-chicken-flocks

There is some more too, but I have not got all night lol.

Also, just wanted to throw in this interesting video about a machine that does in ovo injection. I did see a really goo done someplace but I just went for a quick look and could not find it, so this one will have to do!


Amazes me to see them smash a hole in there.

Also...seeing the thumb nail of all those eggs, reminds me that we still ...have no eggs lol.

 

[ozexpat]

Thanks for the link, it was interesting to read. I agree with pretty much all of it, especially mixing the birds. We have mixed vac and non vac birds. Seems pretty common that people think you can't mix them, or if they have the live HVT they are automatically carriers. I think the confusion comes from that you don't know if they are carriers, so people just assume the worst.

I don't mean to offend Oz, it's just my opinion but there is no supporting info for mature vac in that article. I know that person does it, but it's not shown a test of x,xxx number of birds or blind testing or statistics. It shows that one (very bright and experienced) person uses that method and has reported no foul. I know plenty of people do it, but I have yet to find a conclusive study that goes against all the vac producers recommendations.



Amazes me to see them smash a hole in there.

Also...seeing the thumb nail of all those eggs, reminds me that we still ...have no eggs lol.

Good God Ben, dont tread softly with me.

You will not offend me with anything and I freely admit if I am wrong.I am happy to learn from anyone and everyone.

I work in Cardiology and we deal with minute differences in data, looking at relative risk reductions and spend hundreds of extra dollars per patient on things that give a patient an real risk reduction of 1%. I am a firm believer in evidence based medicine.

In this case, as with so many other practices in chickenery, there is little evidence.

There is no evidence to support giving Mareks Vaccine to any birds except one day olds that were hatched in a Mareks's free environment. Mareks is immumosuppressive - and vaccines by their nature require an immune response to be effective - so one could conclude that the disease prevents the vaccine taking hold and competing with the infection.

What I would like to see is evidence to support that it cannot help. There are no published clinical trials that say giving Mareks vaccine is harmful to adult birds or birds that have come in contact with Mareks.

SO now it becomes a cost versus benefit or risk argument.

If I had a flock of birds that were infected, I would give it a go. In the USA its very economical. It probably does not work, but people also try herbal remedies that probably dont work as well.

Amazes me to see them smash a hole in there.

I watched a video on a hatchery many months ago and saw the same scene - vaccinating with Mareks.

It made me think

The hatch before my current one, I had many chicks die on days 18-21. Big wet chicks that were to tied or depleted their air supply before they externally pipped. I started drilling holes in eggs on day 19. I had no late deaths this hatch.

 

[Wrightsx4]

. Lookie what I found today!

 

[scottcaddy]

. Lookie what I found today!

WTG! Ya-know Ben, I check my profile page seeveral times a day looking for an new post in this thread, in hopes of you finding time to post a new egg story?

Scott

 

[Bens-Hens]

Good God Ben, dont tread softly with me.

You will not offend me with anything and I freely admit if I am wrong.I am happy to learn from anyone and everyone.

I work in Cardiology and we deal with minute differences in data, looking at relative risk reductions and spend hundreds of extra dollars per patient on things that give a patient an real risk reduction of 1%. I am a firm believer in evidence based medicine.

In this case, as with so many other practices in chickenery, there is little evidence.

There is no evidence to support giving Mareks Vaccine to any birds except one day olds that were hatched in a Mareks's free environment. Mareks is immumosuppressive - and vaccines by their nature require an immune response to be effective - so one could conclude that the disease prevents the vaccine taking hold and competing with the infection.

What I would like to see is evidence to support that it cannot help. There are no published clinical trials that say giving Mareks vaccine is harmful to adult birds or birds that have come in contact with Mareks.

SO now it becomes a cost versus benefit or risk argument.

If I had a flock of birds that were infected, I would give it a go. In the USA its very economical. It probably does not work, but people also try herbal remedies that probably dont work as well.

Amazes me to see them smash a hole in there.

I watched a video on a hatchery many months ago and saw the same scene - vaccinating with Mareks.

It made me think

The hatch before my current one, I had many chicks die on days 18-21. Big wet chicks that were to tied or depleted their air supply before they externally pipped. I started drilling holes in eggs on day 19. I had no late deaths this hatch.

I am glad that you know what I meant about conclusive evidence. I have read so many try it, but never see anything to back it up. I do believe you are right regarding cost v benefit, as I had mentioned earlier for $20 go for it. I am yet to see anyone report an issue (supported or not) for mature vaccination, only the it is not effective, which I translate as no harm. I didn't want to sounds negative, sometimes tone of conversation can be lost over the net. I try hard to maintain a good vibe.

I remember you posting about a hole in the lock down phase of your last incubation and wondered if that was due to in ovo practices. I also saw that it seemed to greatly improve your rates which after to cost and effort you have gone through is fantastic!

. Lookie what I found today!

Well done to the little miss that made her start. We have a little Ara who has become friendly and started to squat, Baby has a nice comb and very pink in the face now too but both their hips are too small for passing any form of egg yet. Another one launches into production!

WTG! Ya-know Ben, I check my profile page seeveral times a day looking for an new post in this thread, in hopes of you finding time to post a new egg story?

Scott

Hahahaha, You know mate, It's been so long now I think I am just about out of 'dad' jokes on the matter. I am nearly ready to revert back to my old methods of ranting and raving. Worked well in my uniformed days but I don't see it being as effective with this mottley crew.

Still none.

 

[ozexpat]

I am glad that you know what I meant about conclusive evidence. I have read so many try it, but never see anything to back it up. I do believe you are right regarding cost v benefit, as I had mentioned earlier for $20 go for it. I am yet to see anyone report an issue (supported or not) for mature vaccination, only the it is not effective, which I translate as no harm. I didn't want to sounds negative, sometimes tone of conversation can be lost over the net. I try hard to maintain a good vibe.

I remember you posting about a hole in the lock down phase of your last incubation and wondered if that was due to in ovo practices. I also saw that it seemed to greatly improve your rates which after to cost and effort you have gone through is fantastic!
Well done to the little miss that made her start. We have a little Ara who has become friendly and started to squat, Baby has a nice comb and very pink in the face now too but both their hips are too small for passing any form of egg yet. Another one launches into production!
Hahahaha, You know mate, It's been so long now I think I am just about out of 'dad' jokes on the matter. I am nearly ready to revert back to my old methods of ranting and raving. Worked well in my uniformed days but I don't see it being as effective with this mottley crew.

Still none.

I think there is also a differentiation with known infected flocks versus older birds as well. Where I live we have had no history of Mareks in the municipality. There are no large scale chicken producers and prevailing winds travel over 100s of miles of ocean. There is a good chance that we are Mareks free. It makes sense to vaccinate the whole flock.

I thought about the video I saw with the in-ovo vaccination for a long time. I wish I had the balls to try it earlier. I did do it on the last batch of local eggs as well and neared 80%. I need to do it with a control group
along side but my sample size is too small for a statistically significant p value. Once I am getting 100 eggs a week I will do a 4 week long trial. Who knows - I may even publish it. I am not sure how it would look on my professional resume though

 

[NovaAman]

Oz, there is a guy, Danny, on the other forum... where you aint been in a while... LOL, who is having a problem with his hatches. The first time he thought maybe he drowned them, then this time, thought maybe dried them out... ANYWAY, I was thinking maybe you might be able to drop by over there, and suggest something on his thread, since you've become the mac daddy of incubating. LOL.

ANYWAY, I think you might just get stink eyes if you to ranting and raving at your mottley crew. That or the neighbors will think you've lost it and call the padded cell men for you.

Also don't think you were sounding negative. I have read several threads on here, and you will get the people who will automaticially think, wow, I need to get defensive, this guys not on my side or, he's totally wrong, and start a verbal assault, thus shut down threads. I am open to trying just about anything if there is no clear danger, and I am also open to listening to others opinions on things, and I can take it or leave it with out thinking that some one is trying to be anything but honest, unless they are openly being a ducking glass mole who are degrading and insulting. Those people are usually kids in adult bodies and there are several here. Just avoid those threads all together.