Oyster shells tested for heavy metals?

[U_Stormcrow]

Rather than accusing you of engaging in the "no true Scotsman" methodology, I'd like to see the studies on which you rely for the proposition that whole soy causes a higher incidence of ovarian cancer in chickens? I'm finding very little on the subject.

There are some recent studies showing high soy diets reduce incidence of ovarian cancer in humans (I accept that comparison of humans and chickens is not necessarily a good comparison) - though chickens ARE being used as an analog for humans in ovarian cancer studies, the study I linked focused on a single soy-present compound believed to be key, and a number of studies re: flax seed and oivarian cancer severity (but not incidence), but couldn't find a good study (positive or negative) re: whole soy chicken feed.

Truly, not looking to poke holes in your beliefs, but rather curious as to your sources. I've been digging into the science behind feeding chickens of late.

 

[Katanahamon]

Here’s what I found..

 

[Katanahamon]

Rather than accusing you of engaging in the "no true Scotsman" methodology, I'd like to see the studies on which you rely for the proposition that whole soy causes a higher incidence of ovarian cancer in chickens? I'm finding very little on the subject.

There are some recent studies showing high soy diets reduce incidence of ovarian cancer in humans (I accept that comparison of humans and chickens is not necessarily a good comparison) - though chickens ARE being used as an analog for humans in ovarian cancer studies, the study I linked focused on a single soy-present compound believed to be key, and a number of studies re: flax seed and oivarian cancer severity (but not incidence), but couldn't find a good study (positive or negative) re: whole soy chicken feed.

Truly, not looking to poke holes in your beliefs, but rather curious as to your sources. I've been digging into the science behind feeding chickens of late.

I agree that there is a ton of anecdotal evidence to be sorted through and a lack of good, solid scientific studies. The problem is that the ones funding studies usually have a pro or con goal..soy is another loaded term now..
https://www.stoltzfooslayers.com/post/why-you-should-be-eating-soy-free-pastured-eggs

I’m not saying the information contained in the above is accurate, just as an example of the type of information about soy out there we are exposed to. There are some good reasons to avoid corn and soy simply for the farming practices involved. And, I don’t have “beliefs” I’m trying to stick to the science. If an organic producer like Modesto offers non corn, non soy, I’ll buy it. Their stuff looks good, smells good, the chickens like it, they look good, seem healthy so far, I’ll take these results..

edit..be careful glancing at studies and posting them..as in the other example, sometimes they don’t make the conclusions you think they do. The California Teachers survey study is so broad and uncontrolled as to be meaningless, the second study is about prostaglandins and flax and is nearly ten years old. You also have to look at the authors, their qualifications, conflicts of interest, and who funds the studies..it’s dangerous to cherry pick out of studies..and I’m definitely sure I’m totally guilty of it too!

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I agree that there is a ton of anecdotal evidence to be sorted through and a lack of good, solid scientific studies. The problem is that the ones funding studies usually have a pro or con goal..soy is another loaded term now..
https://www.stoltzfooslayers.com/post/why-you-should-be-eating-soy-free-pastured-eggs

I’m not saying the information contained in the above is accurate, just as an example of the type of information about soy out there we are exposed to. There are some good reasons to avoid corn and soy simply for the farming practices involved. And, I don’t have “beliefs” I’m trying to stick to the science. If an organic producer like Modesto offers non corn, non soy, I’ll buy it. Their stuff looks good, smells good, the chickens like it, they look good, seem healthy so far, I’ll take these results..

So, you don't have studies. and you assert w/o evidence "problem is that the ones funding studies usually have a pro or con goal". Hard to see how a study I linked which did not actually use soy could be "pro soy", or to imagine how the California Teacher's Union might be in the pocket of big soy in a statistical regression analysis that looked at numerous other factors as well. Possibly the Chinese Gov't, in regression analysis of their own people. As its certainly possible they had influence on that study. The similar Japanese studies?? Seems unlikely, they have to import most of their soy... Nor the numerous, numerous others.

You are doing it because it makes you "feel good", and because anecdotally your birds perform well on that ration, though there is no comparative evidence with your flock.

That's fine. Nothing necessarily wrong with that. Nothing necessarily right, either.

But given the choice between using a blog found on the HuffPo written by an osteopathic Dr peddling these wares; or the National Institute of Health, the Physicians Committee on Responsible Medicine, MD Anderson, Cambridge, etc, I know where I'm going to place the largest part of my trust. No guarantees they will get it right, of course - but at least the FDA isn't telling them to cease and desist.

So yeah, if there's a problem of someone having their hand on the scale, it appears to be Dr. Mercola himself.

/Edit and now I'm stepping off, my patience has worn quite thin with your sources.

 

[Mosey2003]

By giving powdered calcium (or even eggshells) you're taking away the hens' supply of slow-release calcium overnight. Which is when their eggs are being formed. Which is why we feed oyster shell specifically, because it takes longer to break down in their digestive tracts.

 

[Katanahamon]

So, you don't have studies. and you assert w/o evidence "problem is that the ones funding studies usually have a pro or con goal". Hard to see how a study I linked which did not actually use soy could be "pro soy", or to imagine how the California Teacher's Union might be in the pocket of big soy in a statistical regression analysis that looked at numerous other factors as well. Possibly the Chinese Gov't, in regression analysis of their own people. As its certainly possible they had influence on that study. The similar Japanese studies?? Seems unlikely, they have to import most of their soy... Nor the numerous, numerous others.

You are doing it because it makes you "feel good", and because anecdotally your birds perform well on that ration, though there is no comparative evidence with your flock.

That's fine. Nothing necessarily wrong with that. Nothing necessarily right, either.

But given the choice between using a blog found on the HuffPo written by an osteopathic Dr peddling these wares; or the National Institute of Health, the Physicians Committee on Responsible Medicine, MD Anderson, Cambridge, etc, I know where I'm going to place the largest part of my trust. No guarantees they will get it right, of course - but at least the FDA isn't telling them to cease and desist.

So yeah, if there's a problem of someone having their hand on the scale, it appears to be Dr. Mercola himself.

/Edit and now I'm stepping off, my patience has worn quite thin with your sources.

Well, you seem to be the type that wants the last word, to “prove” something. Well, you’re absolutely putting words in my mouth and drawing faulty conclusions about my posts. I said the post was an example of the information that is anecdotal, not using it as a source of credible information, I also threw out a peace offering that I’m also guilty of being swayed by this sort of thing occasionally. Ugh..Mercola is a quack.. I have some experience in biology, biological statistical analysis, and I came to this site for information, nice conversation, and to see what other chicken owners are doing. I’m very sorry you seem have taken offense and wish to put me in my place, but, nothing in my posts was meant to do so. There are reasons organic producers are making non corn and non soy products.

 

[Katanahamon]

By giving powdered calcium (or even eggshells) you're taking away the hens' supply of slow-release calcium overnight. Which is when their eggs are being formed. Which is why we feed oyster shell specifically, because it takes longer to break down in their digestive tracts.

Perhaps, but I worry lack of testing for heavy metals and chemicals allows things into their food chain that is undesirable.

 

[Katanahamon]

So, you don't have studies. and you assert w/o evidence "problem is that the ones funding studies usually have a pro or con goal". Hard to see how a study I linked which did not actually use soy could be "pro soy", or to imagine how the California Teacher's Union might be in the pocket of big soy in a statistical regression analysis that looked at numerous other factors as well. Possibly the Chinese Gov't, in regression analysis of their own people. As its certainly possible they had influence on that study. The similar Japanese studies?? Seems unlikely, they have to import most of their soy... Nor the numerous, numerous others.

You are doing it because it makes you "feel good", and because anecdotally your birds perform well on that ration, though there is no comparative evidence with your flock.

That's fine. Nothing necessarily wrong with that. Nothing necessarily right, either.

But given the choice between using a blog found on the HuffPo written by an osteopathic Dr peddling these wares; or the National Institute of Health, the Physicians Committee on Responsible Medicine, MD Anderson, Cambridge, etc, I know where I'm going to place the largest part of my trust. No guarantees they will get it right, of course - but at least the FDA isn't telling them to cease and desist.

So yeah, if there's a problem of someone having their hand on the scale, it appears to be Dr. Mercola himself.

/Edit and now I'm stepping off, my patience has worn quite thin with your sources.

Here..perhaps you can attack this person next..or do you approve of their sources/conclusions?
https://www.tillysnest.com/2020/02/ovarian-cancer-in-backyard-chickens/

 

[U_Stormcrow]

@Mosey2003 as you can see from the picture above, the product being considered is neither powder ron elemental calcium. It is, in fact, a crumble of (per the analysis) 97% calcium carbonate (consistent with the expectation for oyster shell), and looks to be nothing more than crushed, overpriced, oyster shells harvested (most likely) from the Gulf of Mexico. Egg shells themselves are also almost entirely calcium carbonate.

The mill, Coyote Creek Farms, is in Elgin TX, not far from where I used to live on the east side of Austin, TX. I used to drive thruthere via 95, on my way up to join 35 near Temple taking my daughter to UT-Dallas (Denton, technically). Its not particularly close to the coast, if they mill it themselves, its shipped to them on rail.

Somewhat amusing to me, it is NOT labelled as "organic" or non-GMO, unlike the mills other products. To be TX Certified Organic, one must comply with the USDA National Organic Program, which considers non synthetic materials like DE and Oyster Shells to be allowed additives (page 42), but NOT Agricultural Products over which they have authority. So the Original Poster plans to replace non Organic-certified Oyster Shells with non Organic-certified oyster shells bearing the label of an Organic Certified mill, because they are concerned about what might be in the not organic-certified oyster shells harvested out of the same Gulf waters their not organic-certified oyster shells are...



and now I'm being impolite. Civil, perhaps, but impolite.

 

[Mosey2003]

@U_Stormcrow - ah, I just saw where initially she was looking for a powder, I didn't bother reading in depth once the science denial started. It's bad for my health