Paddock/Pasture Paradise - Anyone have one?

[welsummerchicks]

Gravel has to be put on an engineered base that will support it or it just sinks into the ground.

Any area with pressure on it (horses, cars, elephants) winds up being 'built like a road' or it just sinks away and disappears.

Generally the engineered base needs to be big rock, but it needs to be placed on subsoil, not topsoil. So you scrape away the topsoil to undisturbed sub base, put down big rock, then gravel, then that's going to stay there.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Well, some sites genuinely DO need geotextile as well. But yes.

WC, do you know if there is an updated version (paper or online) of the old USDF booklet on building arena foundations? (e.t.a. - I can't find it on my bookshelf at the moment, it must have wandered off to be stored elsewhere, but I think it was called 'On the Right Foot" or something similarly-unhelpful-sounding??) I have no idea about now, but ten or twenty years ago that used to be (justifiably) the bible for anyone wanting to build a good all-weather area. Well, that or find a GOOD gravel-road-and-parkinglot contractor, but there seem to be really quite few of them out there who know what they are doing

Pat

 

[welsummerchicks]

Oh I don't know, I lost mine. I'll see if I can find out.

Actually, textile fabric doesn't seem to work out too good in this area. We've had far, far better luck with scraping away topsoil, getting down to an undisturbed base, laying big rock, little rock and limestone screenings, and having a drainage path.

Our sacrifice areas are really sloped. We drag and scrape and level them with the same tool we use in the arena, to prevent erosion paths from starting, and we periodically add limestone to loafing areas and keep them level. There are times in the winter when we actually plough or snow blow the sacrifice areas, too.

We've got some very unusual conditions here for sure - very severe melts and heavy snows, but overall, I'm seeing a general trend away from membranes and textile layers in riding areas.

About 10 yrs ago, everyone around here was getting them. There were definitely mistakes made - one gal I knew went around and told EVERYONE to put hog's fuel as their top surface. It is horrific around here. It breaks down here in about one year to black muck glop and clogs the membrane.

Even people who didn't go with hogs fuel on top, though, I saw people try several different types of top layers, different kinds of sand, ALL ultimately clogging the membrane. And to my complete horror and shock, LOL, I've now had more than one arena builder tell me, 'all membrane areas eventually fail'.

And well the truth of it really is that all layered drainage systems eventually fail, just how eventually is eventually.

My county extension office is still encouraging geogrid and heavier stabilizing materials though, especially in loafing areas for cattle, etc.

I'm probably going to be a pill and say that any good rural excavator should be able to do basically what the USDF brochure said.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
We may be talking about different methods, b/c the only (effective) use of geotextile that I am familiar with ALSO does all those things, just with the geotextile added either underneath the bottommost gravel.

I've also ridden in a number of rings where the geotextile was put down just under the sand or screenings or whatever the footing layer is; but as you say it doesn't work well and in particular if you get thin spots in the footing the horse's foot can punch down and *rip* the geotextile and it just gets to be an intractable mess.

I'm probably going to be a pill and say that any good rural excavator should be able to do basically what the USDF brochure said.

"Any good" is the kicker. IME horse people are often geniuses at hiring the dingdongs who will charge twice the price for half the job

Pat​

 

[welsummerchicks]

Really I haven't seen membranes work well here in any layer, even down lower they are coming up to the surface, and even outside of this area, I've been seeing more and more people recommending against them.

About 20 yrs ago it was the greatest thing in the world; I got a book from England on building gallops and arenas and they said that they had abandoned membranes, for riding arenas.

I do think they have a value in some loafing areas where animals are more standing and less moving, but for more than that, a horse is like a gigantic vibrator that destroys layers of disparate materials.

But back to the main subject. Before I got one of those systems I would REALLY RECOMMEND you have someone trained go over your property and give you an idea if it really would resolve your issues. It depends on how your property falls.

And while Patnchicks and I are intrigued about the ins and outs of construction methodoligy (there's a point in every horse person's life where excavating takes on a whole new meaning), I really have to emphasize the basic issue - the more animals you put on the less land, the less robust of a plant system, and the less suitable the land is (drainage, fall, perc), the more trouble you have maintaining soil and water quality. Picking high and dry properties with good draining soil to start with, light and seasonal stocking and avoiding vulnerable areas really helps to keep the cost and the maintenance down.

For the property owner with the small lot, the bottom line with horses is very often - buying hay, sacrifice areas and occasional grazing that really serves as a seasonal treat for a small part of the year. Either that or you get a whole lot more land.

 

[~*Sweet Cheeks*~]

Believe me - I would LOVE to have more property that is high and dry, indoor and outdoor arenas, etc. If I won the lottery of at least a million, I would buy this: http://sea.themlsonline.com/results,637030757ede441c0285b04663a38f9d,1.html and open a therapeutic riding program for Gulf War vets. Joint Base McCord/Fort Lewis and Madigan Army Hospital is 30 minutes north of me.

After all my pea gravel got gobbled up by the clay my first winter, the landlord gave me this gray colored fabric stuff to put down that was suppose to stop the clay from coming up. I then covered that with wood chips. Didn't work. The stall mats on top of all of that helped.

I just got off the phone with the lady who sent the letter who encouraged me to contact the Conservation District that provides free help and assistance. She mentioned they even have some funds to help with things - what I need to call and find out.

 

[~*Sweet Cheeks*~]

I follow Joe Camps (Benji movie maker) Soul of the Horse Blog. (yet to buy his books). His latest video is Pasture/Paddock Paradise. Seen here: http://thesoulofahorse.com/blog/new-video-about-our-california-paddock-paradise-what-we-did-how-we-did-it-why/comment-page-1/#comment-2033

I look forward to the second installment that includes his move to wet and green Tennessee, as that would be closer to the environment I have in the Pacific NW.

I welcome the first day of Spring and two days without rain... More good things to come.

 

[welsummerchicks]

I don't think the PP is a cure for every piece of land. I think this is the fallacy the developer of it is promoting. There is no one system that would work for all locations.

It really depends on the stocking rate, soil type, perc, size of property and the way the water runs off the property. I think the PP would work best where the pasture is high up and there is a slope away and down toward the perimeter of the pasture from all sides of the lane area.

I think in some cases, especially with smaller properties, sacrifice areas will be the only effective alternative.

Otherwise you will just wind up with a very muddy lane, and still be getting visits from the environmental people in your county.

I think before spending the money on extra fencing, excavating, etc, have an engineer or person who does arenas and excavating specifically for horse farms, look at the property, for a few hundred dollars save yourself an awful lot of wasted money,

 

[chickenzoo]

What gets me is that someone is concerned about animal waste run off but not the 50 million houses over the hill with septic systems, yard chemicals, car exhaust.... etc.. ect. We have a similar problem with someone complaining about a small amount running off into their woods( in a corner of the woods where they never go ) and the only way you could even tell is that their is green grass growing there..... they also said their may be a problem with run off to the creek somewhere out there that we can't even see it and in between us and that mystery creek is a big big Church, more houses, a Mortuary, a gun range...... please, give me a break. i was here 18 years before this no good city person moved in. Our well was tested by U of Ganisville every few years by the students and always tested clean. We are now putting the house up for sale and finding our 20 + acres somewhere else. With all the new building and crazy people moving out near here, we don't want any part of it... they can have it!

 

[patandchickens]

It seems to me that if the primary motivation here is to stay on the good side of the soil and water folks, you should probably ought to call them up and describe what you're proposing and see WHETHER that would make them happy.

Those types often want a well-vegetated buffer around the edge of the property and you would be creating almost the *opposite* of that.

Probably be good to find out what their reaction will be before you reconfigure things all around that way, as opposed to after the next neighbor complains anyway

Pat