Peafowl Genetics for Dummies (in other words us)

[frenchblackcopper]

AugeredIN My taupe w/e male resembles a very sun faded cameo.I have a trio of Cameo w/e birds as well as my Peach,which will be breeding for the first time this year.My Taupe is lighter in color than both but if darker would be very close to my Cameo w/e

 

[Rosa moschata]

Rosa, I have purple,bronze,and midnight. I believe Clifton has bred the midnight-bronze, or purple and bronze and if I remember right Sid from Texas Peafowl bought them cause Clifton couldn't sell them as something new? I know I spoke to Sid about this,but not sure what colors were used but the new color Hazel has appeared on several larger breeders websites as a new colorand I'm sure Clifton was breeding colors you mentioned above.

Yes, I was in correspondence with Clifton, and he told me about his various projects. He starts off by looking at different mutations and thinking which ones would compliment one another, and I like that approach. Personally, I'm not a fan of the white spotting mutations generally, but I will concede that the white patches look nice (to me) against the pale brown colors of Cameo and Peach. And in the darker-trained birds, White Eye by itself is particularly striking without interrupting the overall pattern of the birds. I look forward to seeing pictures of his birds when he posts them on his website, but he doesn't seem to update it often.

My understanding: Indigo = purple bronze
Hazel = midnight bronze (Has a midnight type neck coloring with a bronze type tail coloration)
Obviously I have seen the one in person. It was different but not much so. Does not make me want one badly. The pretty spalding peach and adult taupe males are very nice in person.

If "Hazel" is what you get from combining Midnight and Bronze, then I'm a little disappointed. I was hoping for something darker, but if that's how the two mutations work together, so be it. A male would make an interesting breeder, however, being as he could be set up with a Midnight hen and a Bronze hen, and you'd get chicks visual for both those colors (and split for the other) from one trio. That is, if that's what "Hazel" actually is.

 

[Dany12]

OK, I'm back.


Remember how I said that Pied and White are different mutated versions of the same gene? That means that a White bird can't be "split" for Pied, and a Dark Pied bird can't be "split" for White. Why is this? Chromosomes come in like-pairs (except for Z and W, which are different but pair up in females). This means that a bird can have either two copies of the same version of a gene, or one of each of two different versions. Pied and White being two different versions of the same gene (the third version is the "normal" version), then a bird can be one of the following possibilities:

2 copies "normal" = India Blue
1 copy "normal" and 1 copy Pied = India Blue split to Pied
1 copy "normal" and 1 copy White = India Blue split to White (note that this and the previous one will look rather similar in real-life)
2 copies Pied = Dark Pied
2 copies White = White
1 copy White and 1 copy Pied = Pied

Note that in each case, the total number of copies = 2. We can't have an India Blue split to White and Pied because that would = 3. Similarly, Whites can't be split to Pied, and Dark Pieds can't be split to White. And Dark Pied, White and Pied do not have a "normal" version of the gene at all -- thus even if bred to a pure "normal" India Blue, these last three will have offspring which are split to Pied or split to White.

How to qualify IB silverpied with so many different genes? W ... We .... P ...

Hopkin said : Silver Pied X White = 50% Silver Pied; 50% White
http://www.hopkinslivestock.com/genetics.htm

What type of silverpied is it? only this one : WPWeN ? ( N = normal gene ).
We need new names - dark silverpied , loud silverpied or clear silverpied.
For me Dark silverpied with its genome : WPWeN and herre are some pics of this kind of bird:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/g/...-virginia-fauquier-county/sort/display_order/

Clear silverpied will be WPWeWe ... a very light silverpied with 2 genes of We.

Is there pics of Cameo or Purple dark silverpied ?

Am I wrong?

 

[frenchblackcopper]

I'm getting a little confused,,,,as always. But how is it possible for some colors to be bred together and get a new color, where other breedings just produce one or the other same color as one of the parents? Or how different color breedings results in different colors, in different places on new hatched birds like the neck areas? Seems the pigment gene does not always "affix" to the same location? For the same body area of the new bird?
Something has to be different on some color genetics when crossed. Purple and Cameo will produce Peach when bred together. To me Peach is slightly different than Cameo. Both colors to me (Cameo and Peach) is a different "hue" of a tan,or lite brown. Just as when you mention the color blue, there is ocean blue and sky blue. The color Midnight is a darker shade of Blue and at least comparing these two colors, there is a very noticable difference but still both are in the spectrum hue of blue.

 

[Rosa moschata]

I'm getting a little confused,,,,as always. But how is it possible for some colors to be bred together and get a new color, where other breedings just produce one or the other same color as one of the parents? Or how different color breedings results in different colors, in different places on new hatched birds like the neck areas? Seems the pigment gene does not always "affix" to the same location? For the same body area of the new bird?
Something has to be different on some color genetics when crossed. Purple and Cameo will produce Peach when bred together. To me Peach is slightly different than Cameo. Both colors to me (Cameo and Peach) is a different "hue" of a tan,or lite brown. Just as when you mention the color blue, there is ocean blue and sky blue. The color Midnight is a darker shade of Blue and at least comparing these two colors, there is a very noticable difference but still both are in the spectrum hue of blue.

The confusion arises because we tend to think of the mutations as "this gene makes that color" rather than what they actually are -- "this gene makes that protein, which is one of many used in the recipe to result in color". So look at how a mutation differs from the "normal" version, and remember that there is not "blue" or "midnight" or "bronze" (etc.) pigment produced. The pigment is melanin, and any "color" we see is a result of how much is made, where it's deposited in the feather, and the structure of the feather -- all working together to give the color reflected back at us. In a "normal" blue, the pigment is deposited deep within the feather structure, and the structure of the feather "bends the light" so that the brownish-black melanin appears blue -- incidentally, the same basic idea that allows for melanin deep within the iris to appear "blue" in people with blue eyes (brown-eyed people have additional melanin on the outer layer of the iris, which doesn't "bend" to blue and appears brown, while blue-eyed people lack this extra layer).

So what goes on with the mutated colors? I can't say specifically how each acts, but the protein they produce results in some deviation from the "normal" blue color recipe. Perhaps more of the pigment is produced, or less, or the granules of pigment are shaped differently and thus can't "fit" into the right areas of the feather, or perhaps the structure of the feather is altered and the "bending of the light" capability is compromised. The point is that "Midnight" doesn't result from "Midnight pigment" but a deviation from the "normal Blue" recipe somewhere in the series of instructions that lead to "normal Blue" appearance. When you breed two different color mutations together, you thus put two deviations from "normal Blue" recipe together. How they appear together will depend on what each individual deviation is, and how they affect each other.

So take Peach, for example. Cameo peas don't display the normal bending-of-light (i.e. refraction) which allows brownish-black melanin to appear blue. Purple seems to be a decrease in melanin (brown appearing where IBs are black), and an altering of the refraction (blue appears purple). Put them together and you get something with no refraction (Peach peas don't show any blue or purple, thanks to the effect of Cameo), and something lighter than Cameo (the diluting effect of Purple).

The trick in deciding what to combine is in trying to figure out how each mutation deviates from "normal", and trying to predict how both together would work. I was hoping that Midnight worked like a "dark factor" to increase levels of melanin, while Bronze worked by resulting in melanin being deposited in an outer layer of the feathers, reducing refraction which would otherwise "bend" reflected brown to blue (as in human eye color). So together, I hoped, the result would be an even darker brown. But, if "Hazel" is the result, then my guess was incorrect.



~Christopher

 

[mustangkid]

What type of silverpied is it? only this one : WPWeN ? ( N = normal gene ).
We need new names - dark silverpied , loud silverpied or clear silverpied.
For me Dark silverpied with its genome : WPWeN and herre are some pics of this kind of bird:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/g/...-virginia-fauquier-county/sort/display_order/

Clear silverpied will be WPWeWe ... a very light silverpied with 2 genes of We.

I normally sit back and just read this stuff not very often do I reply, but Danny we can't have dark silver pied, loud silver pied, and clear silver pied or can we? A silver pied as it seems to be thought of is a bird that has only 15-20% max color the rest white, most of them seem to be 10-15% color with a WPWeWe gene make up. They also need to have the "Silver Saddle" on there back. In the above photo link by Danny, He brings up a Photo of bird he a Dark Silver Pied with a genome of :WPWeN the bird in the photo is what I would call a loud pied but looking at the train feathers they are either white or whiteeye so to me he is a Pied White eye, WPWeWe? I would not call him a Silver Pied because he has too much color as well as no silver saddle but a great green one. How can we have two birds with the same Genes and be different WPWeWe and WPWeWe? People have brought up some of the big breeders selling both Silver Pied as well as Pied White eyed birds. Pied White eye is one White, one Pied and one or two copies of Whit eeye. Silver Pied as we know it is One White, one Pied and two White eye genes? One has a green Saddle and One a Silver Saddle. I think George and Rosa have a point here , where does the Silver come from? I think that there has to be another modifying gene at work with the Silver Pied.

I have Silver Pieds and have gotten the 1:2:1 Ratio when breeding them. White WWWeWe, Silver Pied WPWeWe, and Dark Pied White eye PPWeWe. a Blue bird with a few white wing feathers, and a grey/sliver wash over the back. Of coarse the males of the Dark Pied White eyes will have the white eyes in the train at maturity. So can we have Clear Silver Pied, Loud Silver Pied and Dark Silver Pied as Danny calls them? I think we do now. The more important Question is, can we have Loud Pied White Eye (Double Factor We), Dark Pied White eye and all the Silver Pieds without something else working in the Genes of the Silver Pied? I don't remember who it was but a breeder from Ca years ago (He still Posts a little Here) was told he just needed a silver pied and a pied white eye to get silver pieds, he breed that together for a couple of years and never got one Silver Pied bird, he said if I remember right, lots of whites and Pieds but no silver pieds.

 

[Rosa moschata]

As I look through breeder websites, I'm seeing pics of some peas which display the "silver saddle" despite not being Pied, White Eyed, or Silver Pied. I'm thinking that perhaps a separate mutation DID arise which leads to this specific trait, but that it, alone, does not make a bird "Silver Pied." So I think it would be confusing to name that mutation "Silver Pied" since when it's present alone (without White, Pied, or White Eye), all it does is make the "silver" or "powder" on the saddle -- perhaps it could be called "Powder". If a bird needs to have this "silver" or "powder" on the saddle to be called "Silver Pied" then it's just one more necessary ingredient for the phenotype -- necessary, but not sufficient.

 

[mustangkid]

Rosa how do you explain a Pied bird? Is it not One White and one Pied? A dark Pied Two Pied genes right? Now we add Either one or two white eye. WPWeWe that is what has been called Silver Pied, but in the Photo that Danny linked to it shows a bird that is in no way Silver Pied. It has to much Color and does not have a Silver saddle. Is it not A WPWeN at the very least or a WP We We? It for sure has White Eye train feathers as well as pure white train feathers. So what is it? We can,t have both Pied White eye and Silver Pied be WPWeWe.

 

[Rosa moschata]

From information I've gathered, Pied and White are two mutated versions of the same "normal" gene. Since peas can have only two copies total (some combination of "normal", Pied or White), then the ONLY possible combinations are (with names given to resulting phenotypes in parentheses):

1) two copies "normal" ("Normal")
2) two copies Pied ("Dark Pied")
3) two copies White ("White")
4) one copy "normal", one copy Pied ("split to Pied")
5) one copy "normal", one copy White ("split to White")
6) one copy Pied, one copy White ("Pied")

Having one copy of either Pied or White, and one copy of "normal", results in a bird having a few white feathers. Though I'm not 100% certain, from what others have told me, being split to Pied results in "less white" than being split to White, and in the split to Pied birds, the white is restricted to the flight feathers and (sometimes) on the throat. Being split to White is more random with regards to where the white feathers are -- sometimes in the same spot as in split to Pied, but could also be a random white feather or more elsewhere. Having two copies of White results in an all-white bird. Having two copies of Pied results in Dark Pied, with white feathers being basically restricted to the throat and wings -- but more white in those areas than in "split to Pied". When a bird has one copy of White and one copy of Pied, the result is a variable expression -- more white than Dark Pied, but less white than White. Birds with "lots of white" are called "loud Pieds" while those that are less white (but still more white than Dark Pied) are called just "Pied". I think the variability might be due to:

1) simple random variable expression of the White gene
2) variability of expression of the White gene due to maternal versus paternal inheritance -- perhaps one chromosome of the pair is "more active" than the other depending on from which parent it was inherited. Such a phenomenon can be found with other genes in other species.
3) other unknown and subtle modifier genes which affect "how active" the particular White gene is as an "eraser" of pigment.
4) some combination of any or all of the above

White Eye is a separate gene, which is visible in birds having only one copy (some ocelli are white, some are colored) or two copies (all ocelli are white). If a bird's whole train is white, anyway, one can't tell if it has one, two, or no copies of White Eye. Thus the White birds from Silver Pied X Silver Pied would carry the White Eye mutation, but visibly are the same as a White bird NOT carrying that mutation.

When a bird has one copy of Pied, one copy of White, and two copies of White Eye, the result is a bird with even more white than a Pied bird. But because there seems to be a range of "how white" a Pied bird can be, there would thus also be a range of "how white" a Pied bird with two copies of White Eye will be. It appears that there may also be another gene which results in the "powdered" saddle that many consider an additional and necessary ingredient for what should be properly called "Silver Pied". I don't know if this is an allele (or "other version") of White Eye, or a separate gene altogether. But as I keep looking through breeder websites, I am seeing some birds which display the "powdered saddle" even though they are not Pied, much less "Silver Pied". So perhaps the "Silver Pied" phenotype requires 4 mutations to be present -- White and Pied (which are alleles, or two versions of the same gene), and White Eye and the "powdered saddle" mutation (which MAY be alleles, or may be separate genes). It's hard for me to say for sure without conducting test breeding to answer "if this is the case, then that should be what I see if I cross this and that".

Birds are pictured as "White Eye" on various breeder websites which have either one or two copies of the White Eye gene (I use the term "Single Factor" versus "Double Factor"). This is apparent by looking at the trains -- one copy results in some white ocelli, and some colored ocelli, while two copies results in all ocelli being white. So birds called "Pied White Eye" may have one copy of Pied, one copy of White, and only one copy of White Eye (thus some ocelli are NOT white). Or perhaps they have two copies of White Eye but lack the "powdered saddle" trait (whatever causes it). Or perhaps they HAVE the "powdered saddle" trait, but also display some colored ocelli (thus are Single Factor White Eye).

The point is that they seem to be "one ingredient short" of everything required to be "Silver Pied". But at the same time, without a consensus on how a Silver Pied must look, and what genes it must have, there will be gray area from breeder to breeder. You might understand "Silver Pied" to be one thing, but the breeder from whom you buy chicks thinks it's something else, and when your newly-purchased birds finally feather out, you may experience disappointment. The breeder "believes" the birds sold were Silver Pied. You "believe" they are not. If there's no standard, how do you decide who is correct?

 

[frenchblackcopper]

Is melanin ( or is it melatonin?) that the human skin produces when uv light is allowed on skin over periods of time,resulting in suntanning? If you feed a dog that has red hair on its body higher doses of keratin,the red will deepen significantly. That substance is found in carrots.We feed a product called Olewo,which is made in Germany,composed of dehydrated carrots and beets. We feed it about 2 months before show season to deepen the already red hair in our German Shepherds. Point being,these diffrent compounds will change the color we see.I've never seen this done to peafowl,but if these substances are introduced in peas diets,it too should change the way we visually see the bird color wise,yes? Instead of hoping that one in a million chance occurs to get new color genes to match up,,can dietary supplements actually change the pigment of melanin before cell division at fertilization?

One thought on Silver Pied,,since the bird has white all on the front of the throat,there is no visible throat patch,or latch. How do we then know silver pied is the same as India Blue pied,which visually shows the white under the beak,on the front of the throat?