Peafowl Genetics for Dummies (in other words us)

[Rosa moschata]

Is melanin ( or is it melatonin?) that the human skin produces when uv light is allowed on skin over periods of time,resulting in suntanning? If you feed a dog that has red hair on its body higher doses of keratin,the red will deepen significantly. That substance is found in carrots.We feed a product called Olewo,which is made in Germany,composed of dehydrated carrots and beets. We feed it about 2 months before show season to deepen the already red hair in our German Shepherds. Point being,these diffrent compounds will change the color we see.I've never seen this done to peafowl,but if these substances are introduced in peas diets,it too should change the way we visually see the bird color wise,yes? Instead of hoping that one in a million chance occurs to get new color genes to match up,,can dietary supplements actually change the pigment of melanin before cell division at fertilization?

Melanin is the pigment, which does increase in the skin with exposure to UV light. Melatonin is secreted in the brain in response to light, and affects circadian rhythm, but is also found plants and probably has other functions. The substance in carrots which can affect coloring is carotene, probably specifically beta carotene. Keratin is the protein which makes up fingernails and hair and skin (and feathers and scales). Color-feeding birds works some species which have yellow to red pigments in their feathers, which can be enhanced by increased amounts of carotenoids (natural, or artificial derivatives like canthaxanthin which is fed to red-factor canaries and flamingos, for example). But I don't think it would work in species which don't display yellow to red pigmentation. I think, at best, it might enhance the yellow skin coloration in the various Greens and Spaldings.

 

[Rosa moschata]

One thought on Silver Pied,,since the bird has white all on the front of the throat,there is no visible throat patch,or latch. How do we then know silver pied is the same as India Blue pied,which visually shows the white under the beak,on the front of the throat?

You must have added this bit while I was responding to the first bit....

hehe

Well, we make assumptions about the whole based on what we know about the individual parts. Pied X Pied displays the same 1:2:1 ratio of Dark Pied : Pied : White that we see in Silver Pied X Silver Pied of Dark Pied Double Factor White Eye : Silver Pied : White (genetically Double Factor White Eyed as well), the only difference being the addition of White Eyed. While it could be possible that there's something totally unrelated genetically giving the Silver Pied phenotype that doesn't involve the Pied or White genes, if we then bred Silver Pied X Pied, what would result? Based on what I've gathered from others, the result would be 1:2:1 of Dark Pied Single Factor White Eye : Pied Single Factor White Eye : White (genetically Single Factor White Eye as well). If it was a completely separate mutation, then we'd get India Blues which are split to everything.

Somehow or another, that "powdered saddle" thing would have to fit in, but I haven't read much which included that trait in crosses, or how often it appears even in Silver Pied X Silver Pied. If it's an allele of White Eye, and Silver Pied birds have one White Eye and one "dusted" White Eye, then some offspring of Silver Pied X Silver Pied would hatch without the "dusted" version. If it's a totally separate gene, then we would have to determine if it is recessive or, like the other white spotting genes, a partially- or incompletely-dominant mutation (so, does it need two copies to show, or only one, or either -- but having two makes it show better? IDK). For the most part, it's just mentioned within the description of Silver Pied, and identified in some photos. It's also hard to sort it out when birds called "Silver Pied" in different places seem to vary with respect to specific traits they show. One person here can say "they should look like this" but when I go to some breeder websites, I see birds that "don't...exactly" and yet still get the same name.

 

[new 2 pfowl]

Could someone please change the name of this thread from "Peafowl Genetics for Dummies" to "Peafowl Genetics for People Who Know What They Are Talking About"? The current title qualifies as false advertising.

 

[frenchblackcopper]

New2,AugeredIN maybe able to change it,since he started the thread,,but Rosa is the guru when it comes to genes. Had my daughter read part of this thread tonight,she's in her second year of college and has been accepted to Illinois State University in the fall of this year.She is majoring in Pschycology with a minor in Biology.She wants to be a genetic therapist and needs no less than a Masters,PhD possibly. She read some of the posts and asked me what I didn't understand? She has been covering this genetic alignment-gene splicing,chromosome bonding stuff 2 years now thru her microbiology classes. I need pictures,,I'm a hands on person.Lets see,theres 2 cells,,the sperm and the egg.inside of each is 28 chromosomes,that must hook up,then start multiplying like crazy.The genes,alleles,,"one copy" of this,and that,,is what I have a hard time picturing in my peabrain.Wonder if Youtube has any short clips showing these parts of reproduction,and how they connect with each other,then keep splitting apart,ect? I need a visual of whats being explained here I guess.

 

[Rosa moschata]

New2,AugeredIN maybe able to change it,since he started the thread,,but Rosa is the guru when it comes to genes. Had my daughter read part of this thread tonight,she's in her second year of college and has been accepted to Illinois State University in the fall of this year.She is majoring in Pschycology with a minor in Biology.She wants to be a genetic therapist and needs no less than a Masters,PhD possibly. She read some of the posts and asked me what I didn't understand? She has been covering this genetic alignment-gene splicing,chromosome bonding stuff 2 years now thru her microbiology classes. I need pictures,,I'm a hands on person.Lets see,theres 2 cells,,the sperm and the egg.inside of each is 28 chromosomes,that must hook up,then start multiplying like crazy.The genes,alleles,,"one copy" of this,and that,,is what I have a hard time picturing in my peabrain.Wonder if Youtube has any short clips showing these parts of reproduction,and how they connect with each other,then keep splitting apart,ect? I need a visual of whats being explained here I guess.

You need to go to YouTube and just search away. I found a great series for high school students preparing for AP Biology. There are MANY MANY more...just search the general topic you're looking for, and you'll find it. Here are some:

Genetics

Genotypes And Phenotypes

A Beginner's Guide To Punnett's Squares

Mendelian Genetics

Linked Genes (relevant to discussion of two mutations traveling together on the same chromosome, but are NOT alleles, such as Purple and Cameo, and how they can separate or come together via crossing over)

Mutations

Gene Regulation

Crossing over (the means by which Purple and Cameo combined to create Peach) is included in this one:
Mechanisms That Increase Genetic Variation


I'm not sure if I'm putting them in the proper order, but feel free to skim through his channel for more. And please also try doing your own general searches for individual terms I used which you may not completely understand.

 

[Rosa moschata]

Could someone please change the name of this thread from "Peafowl Genetics for Dummies" to "Peafowl Genetics for People Who Know What They Are Talking About"? The current title qualifies as false advertising.

My goal in posting on this thread (with its current title) is that people who think they are "genetics dummies" can read through this and learn the subject. It's really based on a few simple concepts which can be applied with simple math, allowing people to answer their "what do I get if I cross this with that?" questions for themselves. There's no need for people to feel they're stuck being "genetics dummies". And they're not "dummies" at all. They just didn't learn something which I'm sure is within their capabilities to learn had they given themselves the chance to learn it. I'm hoping that everyone reading this will become more confident in basic genetics.

 

[BYC-user-174785]

I can't verify if it is a new mutation or the result of two established mutations combining. The information provided isn't enough. Determining whether it's one or two mutations can be done by test-breeding of two IB split to Taupe birds together. If the offspring segregate into more than two visual groups (Taupe and India Blue), then there are at least two mutations responsible for the phenotype.

The story of Peach, however, did provide enough information (and I was also in correspondence with the original breeder). Without a doubt, Peach is genetically Purple-Cameo, which occurred the same way Lutino-Pearl and Cinnamon-Pearl cockatiels originated -- crossover in a male split to both mutations. A couple years ago, I came here asking why breeders didn't try combining colors, and was met with all sorts of "that ain't possible". But now here we are, and there's already at least one other confirmed color combination on the market -- Indigo (genetically Purple-Bronze), by the same breeder who raised the first Peach.

Privately, people have emailed me about setting up their own mixed pairs to see what they can get, so I'm hoping in the next year or two to hear about something interesting hatching out somewhere. Personally, I'm thinking that Midnight and Bronze would work well together, perhaps resulting in a healthier "black pea" than the current Charcoal mutation offers. How to make that? The same way one would make a Bronze Blackshoulder by breeding together the offspring of a Bronze barred wing and an IB Blackshoulder -- except switch the latter out for a Midnight barred wing. I think it'd be easier to avoid adding the Blackshoulder gene into the mix right away, being as it'll be hard to tell apart the various Blackshoulder hens by the little bit of color remaining on their necks. As with making Bronze Blackshoulder from scratch, you'll have a 1/16 chance of getting one among the F2s.

There are black peafowl in the making...a work of Cliftons.

My understanding: Indigo = purple bronze
Hazel = midnight bronze (Has a midnight type neck coloring with a bronze type tail coloration)
Obviously I have seen the one in person. It was different but not much so. Does not make me want one badly. The pretty spalding peach and adult taupe males are very nice in person.

Which one have you seen in person?

Rosa, I have purple,bronze,and midnight. I believe Clifton has bred the midnight-bronze, or purple and bronze and if I remember right Sid from Texas Peafowl bought them cause Clifton couldn't sell them as something new? I know I spoke to Sid about this,but not sure what colors were used but the new color Hazel has appeared on several larger breeders websites as a new colorand I'm sure Clifton was breeding colors you mentioned above.

I have e-mailed both Sid and Clifton before. I know Clifton made a combination, and Sid has them. Not sure how much I can say about it...

Quote: I have my ways of learning about Hazels and did get the scoop on their history. I will have to ask again for it and if I can post it I will. I can even get them in a few years. I do know more stuff off the top of my head, but yet again cannot be telling everything... I have gotten permission to take pictures of them when I will see them in person so hopefully I will get nice pictures, and I have received permission to share them with others. The are young still.

 

[frenchblackcopper]

I've seen Hazels up close at Brads this spring and wasn't impressed with a striking new color.Same with Mocha,except for the fact their feathers are somewhat like a silkie hens in spots,and the Indigos must not have been that diffrent either if one breeder sold all he had of them because he could not sell them.Black,now that is interesting because I have a coming 2 yr old IB B/S that at this point is totally black,except for his blue neck.I have another IB B/S hatched the same year that still has the insides of his black feather with the tan coloring,,something very diffrent between two b/s birds only weeks apart.Problem is,I need a black hen,,

 

[Rosa moschata]

There are black peafowl in the making...a work of Cliftons.

Which one have you seen in person?

I have e-mailed both Sid and Clifton before. I know Clifton made a combination, and Sid has them. Not sure how much I can say about it...

I have my ways of learning about Hazels and did get the scoop on their history. I will have to ask again for it and if I can post it I will. I can even get them in a few years. I do know more stuff off the top of my head, but yet again cannot be telling everything... I have gotten permission to take pictures of them when I will see them in person so hopefully I will get nice pictures, and I have received permission to share them with others. The are young still.

Yes, I remember Clifton telling me about his ongoing projects. I can't wait to see them updated on his website.

I do think it's interesting that new colors are coming out, likely to be new combinations of already existing mutations, and just a couple years ago when I asked why others weren't trying this, everyone kept posting that it wasn't possible -- yet all the while, obviously some breeders were doing it, and now here they come, ready for sale.

Hmmmm.......

Combining Colors

Here I posted an email from Clifton which he gave me permission to share on this forum.

 

[Rosa moschata]

I've seen Hazels up close at Brads this spring and wasn't impressed with a striking new color.Same with Mocha,except for the fact their feathers are somewhat like a silkie hens in spots,and the Indigos must not have been that diffrent either if one breeder sold all he had of them because he could not sell them.Black,now that is interesting because I have a coming 2 yr old IB B/S that at this point is totally black,except for his blue neck.I have another IB B/S hatched the same year that still has the insides of his black feather with the tan coloring,,something very diffrent between two b/s birds only weeks apart.Problem is,I need a black hen,,

I think part of the issue is that peafowl really have only one pigment type, all the rest of the color being refraction based on feather structure and where within the feather the pigment is deposited. So basically, there isn't as much that can be "done" with that as with a bird normally producing other pigments, like reds and yellows. Perhaps at this point, it's really just subtle modifications of shades, which would be nice for those interested in creating their own "strain" of peafowl to perfect. In other words, putting together the mutations like paint on a canvas, and then selecting for best form of body, and expression of mutations, perhaps with just the right dash of Spalding, and then getting it to breed true. That would be a true work of "lawn art"!