peahens laying in mid november??

[johnskoi]

found two eggs earlier in the week -- thought maybe i just overlooked 'em ... next day another egg in the same spot ... i went a little crazy ordering eggs and hatching a bunch in the bators this summer .... had to do a little pea juggling (dividing the pens differently) in the past few days to give the little guys more room .. found another nest with 3 eggs .... today, another egg in the freshly cleaned cage ---- guess i'm just stating all this so you think the eggs have there a LONG time

have the first 6 in the bator -- should know in a few days if they're fertile --- i'm almost hoping they're not, because i'm not looking forward to the prospect of peas in the house until april ... there are few turds as smelly as a peas... ... but if they are fertile, i have to give 'em a fair shot

my hens always lay later in the season compared to most .. may get a few sporadic eggs in may and june, but they usually don't lay the eggs they set on till july and august --- this year i scoffed most of their eggs .. the few that i let them set on had one mishap or another.. for the past two months they've been sharing their quarters with the chicks (divided, but two of the hens have wanted IN in the worst way -- didn't want to chance any brutalizing, so i never let them intermingle...

i live in the pine barrens on Long Island --( our nights typically run 5 - 10 colder than surrounding areas) --- the cage is coverd with plastic (their run is open to the elements) ... if i let the hens set on any new eggs (assuming they're fertile) do you think the babies would survive a typical northeast winter?

and does ANYBODY else have peas still laying??

tia,
john

 

[Resolution]

When their hormones are scrambled they'll lay anytime of the year. The eggs will be sterile but they make amazing lemon custard pies. Soybean meal is loaded with phytoestrogens- it tends to throw hormones of birds off- and the new GMO soy is a whole different material than the soy used in feed even five yeas ago.
The inclusion of round up ready soy has only been used in feed for the last four years. There are no long term studies of the effects of this feedstuff on peafowl. Judging from conversations I've had with the last of the avicultural masters, there has been a dramatic drop off in productivity in wild species like Green Peafowl so it is a matter of logic that this will eventually have an effect on the hormonal equilibrium of domestic peafowl as well. In the thousands of years that peafowl have been kept in captivity, why is it that suddenly they are laying during odd months of the year? What old farming family hasn't kept their peafowl in the hen house for winter? The hens are on lights to produce eggs and it never effects the peafowl as it does the chicken. Their hormones are more hard-wired than those of the domestic chicken. I've been reading quite a lot about pheasants and peafowl and turkeys- all sorts of birds not being fertile, moulting at odd times of the year and laying eggs completely out of cycle lately.

 

[johnskoi]

Quote:
lol - no time for baking till january

ty for the info ..the hormone thing can't be good --- any recommendations for brands of feed NOT containing soy?

 

[6littlechickies]

Peafowl laying is tied to the light cycle and the triggering of hormones through this cycle. All large breeders I know, several have 100's of birds feed commercial feeds that contain soy in some quantity. It is doubtful that this is the cause or it would be rampant throughout breeders and I have heard nothing of it. At some point the light cycle they were used to was disturbed and the birds have not reset the "switch". If you have any external lights on the birds shut them off. What is the current length of the males train? It should not be fully grown in yet and maybe a foot or so long give or take 6 inches.

 

[Resolution]

Quote:
lol - no time for baking till january

ty for the info ..the hormone thing can't be good --- any recommendations for brands of feed NOT containing soy?

Make more of an effort to create your own feed. Scratch grain is a great place to start. It fills the birds up and provides some valuable fibre and nutrition. If you are concerned about too much corn just buy millet and sorghum, some oats and mix it yourself. The next issue is animal protein and sufficient fat. Peafowl require more dietary fat than chickens because they consume more protein- animal protein in nature. In captivity it's not practical to grow your own fish- and its not feasible to buy it.

Just look for a soy free pet kibble. Wellness makes soy free cat kibble find some and mix it into your homemade scratch. The vitamins and minerals in catfood are not formulated for birds but don't screw around with adding vitamins and minerals to their daily maintenance feed.

Instead, every week or so -mix up a fruit salad of sorts - you can use inexpensive canned fruit low in sugar but not artificial sweetener-
On this fruit salad mix in Herptivite Multivitamin and some walnuts.

Hard boiled eggs are another great supplement but segregate the hens you will be collecting eggs from and- feed them as you are feeding your peafowl so that you are not loading them with round up ready soy .

Every once and again you can pull their water for a good part of the day so they get good and thirsty. Then add a cherry or cranberry concentrate to their water so they get a good dose of antioxidants every three to five weeks or so- mark it on the calendar.

 

[deerman]

Quote:
lol - no time for baking till january

ty for the info ..the hormone thing can't be good --- any recommendations for brands of feed NOT containing soy?

Make more of an effort to create your own feed. Scratch grain is a great place to start. It fills the birds up and provides some valuable fibre and nutrition. If you are concerned about too much corn just buy millet and sorghum, some oats and mix it yourself. The next issue is animal protein and sufficient fat. Peafowl require more dietary fat than chickens because they consume more protein- animal protein in nature. In captivity it's not practical to grow your own fish- and its not feasible to buy it.

Just look for a soy free pet kibble. Wellness makes soy free cat kibble find some and mix it into your homemade scratch. The vitamins and minerals in catfood are not formulated for birds but don't screw around with adding vitamins and minerals to their daily maintenance feed.

Instead, every week or so -mix up a fruit salad of sorts - you can use inexpensive canned fruit low in sugar but not artificial sweetener-
On this fruit salad mix in Herptivite Multivitamin and some walnuts.

Hard boiled eggs are another great supplement but segregate the hens you will be collecting eggs from and- feed them as you are feeding your peafowl so that you are not loading them with round up ready soy.

Every once and again you can pull their water for a good part of the day so they get good and thirsty. Then add a cherry or cranberry concentrate to their water so they get a good dose of antioxidants every three to five weeks or so- mark it on the calendar.

Or do whats best and feed a premix feed that has worked for thousands of peafowl. Scratch feed is the worst thing to give them, feed eggs how will you know what protien level they get.......to high leg problem...to low poor feathers, and weak young , leave mixing feed to the pros..

 

[Resolution]

I am a professional. How many different kinds of animal feeds have you formulated?

Can you please explain why "scratch grain is the worst thing you can feed them" ?
What specific "protein" are you speaking of? Please educate us on dietary protein deerman- I'm unsure if you are describing essential amino acids or non-essential amino acids?
Are we talking about methionine, histidine, lysine, isoleucine, valine? Are there more kinds of amino acids and are these essential or non-essential? What levels of these amino acids would you suggest be included in a gamebird ration and at what ratio with say phenylalanine-and what precisely would you expect the levels cysteine, serine and tyrosine should look like? How important is arginine to peafowl? Is this something they must procure from foods they eat or can it be created by the body of the bird?

It's my understanding that:

In nutrition, proteins are broken down in the stomach during digestion by enzymes to provide amino acids for the body, including the essential amino acids that cannot be biosynthesized by the body itself. Thus, protein should provide both essential and non-essential amino acids for protein synthesis.

It's also my understanding that:

Most animal and certain vegetable proteins are considered complete proteins with a full complement of essential amino acids in adequate proportions.

Is soy a complete protein?

Is the use of soybean meal something that has been used in livestock feed for a very long time? If so, how many years?
If soybean meal was used in livestock feed in the past is it the same material that is used today?

What's the lifespan of your average domestic poultry? Is their feed formulated for long healthy lives or short productive ones?

Is it possible that deficiencies of specific nutrients may be responsible for atrophy of limbs? Why do peafowl require protein to produce feathers?
IF the commercial livestock feed producers have discovered a method to increase their profit margins by "improving" a commodity crop via genetic engineering they also have the prerogative to increase the % of that material within their formulations to meet nutritional requirements enforced by the USDA.
Those nutritional requirements are based solely on tests conducted on highly domesticated strains of industrial chicken and turkey breeds.

Again, what is the lifespan of these birds upon which these diets have been formulated?

I'm of the opinion that learning something new every day is an objective worth living for. There are many right ways of doing things.
Please educate us with your methods of animal husbandry.

 

[deerman]

Quote:
Guess what i don't need to know how to formulate any..........reason i feed what others worked year to do......you telling people to start with scratch..and start adding other....what % of this or that.....so guess they will know how to formulate a proper mix.

I know you are just wanting to try selling your super feed.......most people in the peafowl world don't buy it....so try pushing it to those new to the peafowl.

Yes like another of your post.....feed scratch and your high $ high protien on the side.....sure the peafowl will know how much to eat of each.

Alot of feed companies make a great feed that works for peafowl.

You can use your sell pitch to others......like i said most of the peafowl breeders......don't buy it....i for sure DON'T.

Any of my birds will match yours for colors or heath. mine with their premixed feed. yet to see the ones you have..

Yes i have great results with premix feed.......as do most of the biggest breeders of peafowl.

 

[Resolution]

Quote:
Guess what i don't need to know how to formulate any..........reason i feed what others worked year to do......you telling people to start with scratch..and start adding other....what % of this or that.....so guess they will know how to formulate a proper mix.

I know you are just wanting to try selling your super feed.......most people in the peafowl world don't buy it....so try pushing it to those new to the peafowl.

Yes like another of your post.....feed scratch and your high $ high protien on the side.....sure the peafowl will know how much to eat of each.

Alot of feed companies make a great feed that works for peafowl.

You can use your sell pitch to others......like i said most of the peafowl breeders......don't buy it....i for sure DON'T.

Any of my birds will match yours for colors or heath. mine with their premixed feed. yet to see the ones you have..

Yes i have great results with premix feed.......as do most of the biggest breeders of peafowl.

I haven't mentioned any of my feed products on this thread deerman- on purpose. I decided after your last illogical rant against my "superfood" that I'd cease discussing it altogether. It's becoming a distraction. You know that wise old saying about assumption... I'd rather share information with people concerned about the health of their birds about avian nutrition. They can create their own feed rations if they know what they're working with. That's what I did for the first twenty some years of aviculture. If you know what the basics are you can go it on your own.

You've made some big assertions. I'm sure many people agree with you. This isn't a debate. I'm not arguing with you and since you haven't presented a single iota of evidence to substantiate any of your opinions, there cannot be any meaningful dialogue about it. This discourse between you and I is leaning toward some sort of liquid evacuation contest and frankly, I'm not interested.

It's not a question of prettier or better deerman. This isn't a kennel club. Geez. Why do you keep railing about seeing my birds?
I haven't got the slightest bit of curiosity about seeing yours and haven't suggested nor do I believe that you are doing anything wrong with your feeding regime or your animal husbandry strategies. Your protocols are different from mine. I'm ok with that. I'm confidant that you know what you're doing and no one is trying to take anything away from you. The biggest peacock breeders can't all be wrong now can they? Since you represent them I'll trust that you do right by all those thousands of peacocks y'all are producing. It's clear from reading this forum that there is plenty of information out there about peafowl. None is greater or lesser. It's all relative and all equal.
Information is only as good as the person digesting it to reason.

 

[johnskoi]

thank yous,

i appreciate ALL of the above input ... i make my living breeding koi and wouldn't have been able to make it work without taking bits of knowledge from any available resources and applying what i needed to make it work for me ... i have MY way of doing things that wouldn't work for everybody, but they work for me

i do have quite a few brooder lights running 24/7 -- i ORIGINALLY dismissed the light thing because i did it last year as well and didn't have any eggs thru the winter months --- but it's also a LOT brighter this year because of the sheer # of babies .... about 2 dozen chicks (3-6 months old) and i feel the youngest still need that added warmth ... the older ones roost .. once the youngest roost for a week or so through the coldest of the nights ahead, i'll start decreasing the light ... my birds tend to hold their trains thru august ...2 males over 3yrs one still has a few lingering train feathers ... i candled the piss out of two of the eggs before i broke 'em open --- NOTHING going on

..

the fish thing for feed would actually be easy AND economical for me ... i have thousands of culls every year that i rehome ... i've toyed with the idea of feeding them to the birds, but never attempted it for fear of the bones causing problems...koi are essentially colored carp ...my culls ..basically think of the feeder goldfish that you see at a petsop -- i KNOW they'd be good protein, but WOULD the bones cause problems for the peas? be a bit of a bummer to hear a 'yes' right now as i just finished rehoming about 5000 fish...lol