Pigeon Talk

[backyard pigeons]

Hundreds of years of breeders selective work is undone in the matter of a few years breeding out in the wild!!

But not all of it is a big loss...

Examine show photos.... https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/pigeon-talk.1276029/page-872

 

[Qwerty3159]

Thanks for linking those pics again! Those dragoons

Does anyone have any idea what’s going on here? I thought maybe it was mites and the pigeon was scratching his face raw, but it only has one foot!
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/conjunctivitis-help-please.1416186/#post-23261090

 

[backyard pigeons]

Those dragoons

those dragoons...

not a big loss if they escape and begin to look a little more,,, normal.

Does anyone have any idea what’s going on here? I thought maybe it was mites and the pigeon was scratching his face raw, but it only has one foot!
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/conjunctivitis-help-please.1416186/#post-23261090

I dont. It is really odd. I hope the pigeon isn't suffering, i think I would end it's suffering if it was mine.

 

[biophiliac]

backyard pigeons
I did not find anything wrong with your post. I am actually slightly saddened with post gone. Everything you wrote was true. I did not see anything offensive what so ever.


I had a small flock come thru last week. They stopped for dinner, at my bird feeder and then flew off.
The sad part is,,,,, one stayed behind. Was walking around on the ground as my chickens were also feeding under the feeder fallen seeds. Would not fly away as I approached him. My conclusion was that he was not going to make this journey anymore. maybe due to age, or whatever,,,,,
DW and I both went into the house with sadness. Maybe he just needed to get some rest, but his flock was far gone.

I agree with your first point. And regarding the weakened grackle - it's likely unrelated but have you heard of the mass bird deaths occurring, particularly in NM?
https://www.lcsun-news.com/story/ne...tory-birds-new-mexico-environment/5780282002/

 

[Kusanar]

See... this is exactly my point. It all boils down to how someone chooses to interpret the definitions. You are saying they can never be wild because they descended from domesticated stock. Yet somehow domesticated stock can be called domestic even though they all descended from wild stock? Would you care to explain this to me? I mean if you want to have some distinction to differentiate the fact that they are coming from domesticated animals, that's fine... but to outright say they can't be "wild" seems kind of absurd to me. Yes, many of these "ferals" choose to live near humans and eat food bits that are left for them... but so do "wild" animals as well. That doesn't make the raccoons and skunks that try to raid my garbage cans for food "feral" does it? I'm just trying to see what peoples reasoning for saying they can't be wild is. One of the definitions for feral is this... existing in a natural state, as animals or plants; not domesticated or cultivated; wild. Heck, wild and feral are synonyms...

http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2...an be tamed,within a single animal's lifespan.

Here you go, there are actual genomic changes when an animal is domesticated and those changes will not revert entirely back to the their wild state once they have been feral.

 

[backyard pigeons]

Fascinating stuff!

First, animals can be tamed, but not domesticated (though some use the terms interchangeably). In these cases, a single wild animal can be adapted to live alongside humans, take their food, and generally benefit from their presence – but the change is entirely behavioral and can occur within a single animal’s lifespan. Genetic changes do not occur, and the rest of the animal’s species remains wild. What’s more, not all domesticated animals are tame: consider chickens or Spanish fighting bulls. Next, we have the inverse of taming, in which a domesticated species is released to the wild and adjusts to fending for itself, results in a feral animal. In both of these cases, behaviors change ahead of genetics – but tamed and feral animals can be precursors of genetic changes in either direction.

so, are different colors and features genetic changes in pigeons?

 

[Kusanar]

Fascinating stuff!

First, animals can be tamed, but not domesticated (though some use the terms interchangeably). In these cases, a single wild animal can be adapted to live alongside humans, take their food, and generally benefit from their presence – but the change is entirely behavioral and can occur within a single animal’s lifespan. Genetic changes do not occur, and the rest of the animal’s species remains wild. What’s more, not all domesticated animals are tame: consider chickens or Spanish fighting bulls. Next, we have the inverse of taming, in which a domesticated species is released to the wild and adjusts to fending for itself, results in a feral animal. In both of these cases, behaviors change ahead of genetics – but tamed and feral animals can be precursors of genetic changes in either direction.

so, are different colors and features genetic changes in pigeons?

Yes, they are. Now, there are color changes that while being genetic were a natural change, like the moths that lived in the clean areas were tan and the ones that lived in polluted areas were dark grey, this is because the tan ones in the city were easy to see and got eaten more, the ones in the country were harder to see when they were lighter because of the trees they rested on. Those moths come in both colors naturally but depending on their environment the population is predominantly one color more than the other.

With the fox experiment, they were using arctic foxes, they got them from fur fox breeders originally. They used the ones still at the fur fox place as a control of unselected foxes as those weren't being selected for temperament. Then they picked the most friendly ones and bred them together and the least friendly ones and bred them together. They ended up with 1 line of domesticated foxes who retained a puppy type appearance, they had larger heads, rounder ears, tails that curled up over their backs, and flashy markings. They never selected for appearance at all, only for temperament. The ones they selected for aggression stayed very close to the wild appearance but they got more and more nasty over the generations to where they would start attacking their cages when you walked in the room.

 

[backyard pigeons]

Okay... Thanks, I'm fascinated.

So if I were to goto Europe, and bring back pure Columbia livia rock doves, and then keep them. Are they domestic? And if so, and then they were released, and produced (with eachother, so still pure Columbia rock doves, but in the US) are they ferals, or wild pigeons? What about crows? I I were to keep American crows in my house, are they domestic? And if so, and I released them and they bred with eachother, are the young feral?

I really want to understand this, but feel that there is something not right with the terms... SO, here is the definition of feral.

fe·ral /ˈferəl,ˈfirəl/

adjective (especially of an animal) in a wild state, especially after escape from captivity or domestication.


Here's the definition of wild:

wild /wīld/ adjective 1. (of an animal or plant) living or growing in the natural environment; not domesticated or cultivated.

Okay, so, what about stocked fish? They once were in a hatchery and fed, but then stocked, and are living in the wild on their own with no help. Are they then ferals or wild?

Thank you for your help!

 

[Kusanar]

Okay... Thanks, I'm fascinated.

So if I were to goto Europe, and bring back pure Columbia livia rock doves, and then keep them. Are they domestic? And if so, and then they were released, and produced (with eachother, so still pure Columbia rock doves, but in the US) are they ferals, or wild pigeons? What about crows? I I were to keep American crows in my house, are they domestic? And if so, and I released them and they bred with eachother, are the young feral?

I really want to understand this, but feel that there is something not right with the terms... SO, here is the definition of feral.

fe·ral /ˈferəl,ˈfirəl/
adjective (especially of an animal) in a wild state, especially after escape from captivity or domestication.


Here's the definition of wild:

wild /wīld/ adjective 1. (of an animal or plant) living or growing in the natural environment; not domesticated or cultivated.

Okay, so, what about stocked fish? They once were in a hatchery and fed, but then stocked, and are living in the wild on their own with no help. Are they then ferals or wild?

Thank you for your help!

Ok, for the rock doves. If they were wild where they where captured, then once captured, they would still be wild, If they (the same birds that were captured) then start reacting positively to humans, then they would be tame wild animals. An individual animal cannot ever be domesticated but they can be tamed. Now, lets say you breed these rock doves in captivity for several generations, lets say 50 or more years, and you are interacting with them and selectively breeding for a specific trait, say you like a certain pattern and so you breed those more than the others, or you have favorites because they come up to you and do funny things so you breed those more than others, after a while they will not be the same as the birds that were captured because of the selective breeding.

Now, if you catch some rock doves and take them to America and turn those very same bids loose, they will still be wild, now they will also likely be invasive but that's beside the point, if you had already selectively bred them for 50+ years and THEN turn them loose, they will be feral because you would have already domesticated them through the selective breeding.

American crows are wild, so if you catch a baby one, you can train it to do all sorts of fun things including talk (if you split the tongue) but, it will still be a wild animal even though it is a tamed wild animal. Again, you could domesticate them by raising them for multiple generations with a specific goal in mind when breeding them but they are not domesticated currently.

The easiest way to explain is that you have the below categories:
Wild - as they are in nature, no selective breeding done by humans, only natural evolutionary changes
Tame - an animal that tolerates or enjoys contact with humans, can be domesticated or wild
Domesticated - has been selectively bred by humans and no longer is the same as the wild version genetically.
Feral - has been domesticated and is no longer genetically the same as the wild version due to selective breeding but is now living in the wild with no human intervention

 

[backyard pigeons]

An individual animal cannot ever be domesticated but they can be tamed.

but there young can?

Now, if you catch some rock doves and take them to America and turn those very same bids loose, they will still be wild, now they will also likely be invasive but that's beside the point, if you had already selectively bred them for 50+ years and THEN turn them loose, they will be feral because you would have already domesticated them through the selective breeding.

Well, some of the pigeons have the original rock dove blood in them, not just because they all came from them, but also since rock doves were brought to America, and some were released and escaped. So,yeah, they are kinda invasive.

But, to me, a 'feral' pigeon is a wild pigeon. Many have never had human contact since they first were here. They are living in the wild, have no human contact, no selective breeding, etc. I appreciate SO MUCH your help, but still, a pigeon living under the bridge is Wild - as they are in nature, no selective breeding done by humans,