Please help, not sure what the problem is...

[TheYLWFlock]

Thank you all. Yes my parents are open to a necropsy, it looks like for backyard poultry, we can get it done for $25 for the first time each year, so we might do that.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

I'm sorry for your loss

Getting the necropsy will give you information, so if you do get one, please let us know what is found.

I wish you the best.

 

[TheYLWFlock]

I'm sorry for your loss

Getting the necropsy will give you information, so if you do get one, please let us know what is found.

I wish you the best.

Thank you, and thank you for all of the help you gave me. We tried, we really did.

I’ll keep you posted on what we decide to do.

 

[rebrascora]

Hi.
I'm so very sorry she took a turn for the worse but applaud you for not shirking a very difficult decision and even more so for actioning it. It seems from your posts that you are a young person and that makes your level of responsibility in such a difficult situation, even more remarkable. I truly am blown away by your sensitivity and maturity.

I am pleased that you are able to send her for a necropsy. Knowledge is empowering even if it is Marek's, which is highly likely. There is a product called Virkon S which is active against viruses like Marek's where other disinfectants are not. You used to be able to buy it in sachets to add to a bucket of water, but it is a long time since I have seen any..... a web search might help locate some. The best that you can do with Marek's is to reduce the reservoir of infected material in your flock's environment..... mainly the coop. Since Marek's is passed on via the inhalation of dander dust, I would start by cleaning out your coop and disposing of the litter carefully..... either burn or bury deep or put it through your waste disposal service. Then I would vacuum the coop to remove all the dust and spiders webs etc and likewise carefully dispose of that and then give the inside of the coop a good spray from the roof down with Virkon S solution. The coop tends to hold the virus for longer and is where there is most risk of dust being inhaled and it is pretty much impossible to eradicate it from the run or ranging area, but the risk is less there. I'm not saying this will prevent your flock from getting Marek's as some will probably already be infected, but they do not shed the virus unless they are symptomatic. So there will probably be birds in your flock that have been infected but the disease is in it's dormant phase..... a bit like people with cold sores.... you cannot tell who has the human Herpes virus unless they are having an outbreak and you can only catch it from them when they are having an outbreak. Marek's is also a Herpes virus.

With Marek's disease, an outbreak is usually triggered by stress. Keeping your flock as happy and stress free as possible will help prevent outbreaks. Things that cause stress are adding new birds or moving them. Young cockerels with raging hormones running riot in the flock harassing the hens and pullets..... it is best to remove them before their hormones kick in. Hormone fluctuations in pullets at point of lay or older hens at moult. Excessively hot weather or confinement due to bad weather etc or predators lurking at night unsettling them. What stresses one bird may not stress another, which is why outbreaks can be so sporadic, with 1 or 2 birds showing symptoms and then a few weeks or months later another one..... unlike other viruses where you tend to get a cascade of symptomatic birds over a relatively short space of time. Obviously some of these stressors can be prevented and others can't, so you can only do your best.
I find that birds suffering from an outbreak have more chance of recovery if you can get them outside in good weather on grass near their flock mates but in a protected environment like a large cage, ideally down wind of the flock. I like to give my flock some fermented feed each day to support their digestive system and fresh green vegetation whenever possible.... they get leaf beet daily through the summer and grass cuttings etc. Birds suffering an outbreak get a good quality vitamin supplement and whatever they will eat..... I have never yet had a sick Marek's bird that got fat, so whilst I try to give them nutritious treats like scrambled eggs and a little raw liver or cat food occasionally, if they will only eat soaked or fermented scratch grains or bread dipped in egg, I'm not averse to giving that to them. The most important thing is to keep them eating. I personally prefer them to give them soft/moist foods that are easily broken down..... dry scratch grains or lumpy foods take a lot of work to grind them up in the gizzard which uses energy that they need to fight the disease. Stressing them and yourself trying to get a particular food into them, because it is good for them, is just defeating the object, because stress makes them worse. It was interesting watching your video because Daisy was walking reasonably well until she got to the hose pipes across the lawn and as soon as she had to negotiate that small obstacle, she suddenly lost control of her leg. It is the same when such birds are in the flock being harassed by flock mates, even if it is very minimal pushing around, they get flustered and that makes them less able to coordinate themselves
I hope we are wrong about Marek's or that you are able to mitigate the risk if it is confirmed and that it is a long time before you have to deal with another such incident, but if you do, feel free to reach out to me if you think there is anything I may be able to help with.

Very best wishes

Barbara

 

[TheYLWFlock]

Hi.
I'm so very sorry she took a turn for the worse but applaud you for not shirking a very difficult decision and even more so for actioning it. It seems from your posts that you are a young person and that makes your level of responsibility in such a difficult situation, even more remarkable. I truly am blown away by your sensitivity and maturity.

I am pleased that you are able to send her for a necropsy. Knowledge is empowering even if it is Marek's, which is highly likely. There is a product called Virkon S which is active against viruses like Marek's where other disinfectants are not. You used to be able to buy it in sachets to add to a bucket of water, but it is a long time since I have seen any..... a web search might help locate some. The best that you can do with Marek's is to reduce the reservoir of infected material in your flock's environment..... mainly the coop. Since Marek's is passed on via the inhalation of dander dust, I would start by cleaning out your coop and disposing of the litter carefully..... either burn or bury deep or put it through your waste disposal service. Then I would vacuum the coop to remove all the dust and spiders webs etc and likewise carefully dispose of that and then give the inside of the coop a good spray from the roof down with Virkon S solution. The coop tends to hold the virus for longer and is where there is most risk of dust being inhaled and it is pretty much impossible to eradicate it from the run or ranging area, but the risk is less there. I'm not saying this will prevent your flock from getting Marek's as some will probably already be infected, but they do not shed the virus unless they are symptomatic. So there will probably be birds in your flock that have been infected but the disease is in it's dormant phase..... a bit like people with cold sores.... you cannot tell who has the human Herpes virus unless they are having an outbreak and you can only catch it from them when they are having an outbreak. Marek's is also a Herpes virus.

With Marek's disease, an outbreak is usually triggered by stress. Keeping your flock as happy and stress free as possible will help prevent outbreaks. Things that cause stress are adding new birds or moving them. Young cockerels with raging hormones running riot in the flock harassing the hens and pullets..... it is best to remove them before their hormones kick in. Hormone fluctuations in pullets at point of lay or older hens at moult. Excessively hot weather or confinement due to bad weather etc or predators lurking at night unsettling them. What stresses one bird may not stress another, which is why outbreaks can be so sporadic, with 1 or 2 birds showing symptoms and then a few weeks or months later another one..... unlike other viruses where you tend to get a cascade of symptomatic birds over a relatively short space of time. Obviously some of these stressors can be prevented and others can't, so you can only do your best.
I find that birds suffering from an outbreak have more chance of recovery if you can get them outside in good weather on grass near their flock mates but in a protected environment like a large cage, ideally down wind of the flock. I like to give my flock some fermented feed each day to support their digestive system and fresh green vegetation whenever possible.... they get leaf beet daily through the summer and grass cuttings etc. Birds suffering an outbreak get a good quality vitamin supplement and whatever they will eat..... I have never yet had a sick Marek's bird that got fat, so whilst I try to give them nutritious treats like scrambled eggs and a little raw liver or cat food occasionally, if they will only eat soaked or fermented scratch grains or bread dipped in egg, I'm not averse to giving that to them. The most important thing is to keep them eating. I personally prefer them to give them soft/moist foods that are easily broken down..... dry scratch grains or lumpy foods take a lot of work to grind them up in the gizzard which uses energy that they need to fight the disease. Stressing them and yourself trying to get a particular food into them, because it is good for them, is just defeating the object, because stress makes them worse. It was interesting watching your video because Daisy was walking reasonably well until she got to the hose pipes across the lawn and as soon as she had to negotiate that small obstacle, she suddenly lost control of her leg. It is the same when such birds are in the flock being harassed by flock mates, even if it is very minimal pushing around, they get flustered and that makes them less able to coordinate themselves
I hope we are wrong about Marek's or that you are able to mitigate the risk if it is confirmed and that it is a long time before you have to deal with another such incident, but if you do, feel free to reach out to me if you think there is anything I may be able to help with.

Very best wishes

Barbara

Thank you for this amazing reply! I did a quick search for Virkon S and I can order it off of amazon.ca for $179.98. I am going to do a huge clean out of the coop and the run and the feeder, waterer, everything after school today. We a have made the decision to send her for a necropsy, but aren’t sure exactly how to do that. We know we have to fill out a submission form, but do we send her with it, or so we send that first? She is being kept in our fridge, how long should we keep her there? Sorry, we are still new to this. We only have four other pullets, only one which is laying. They all look normal and happy, I try to let them out to run around in the afternoons, but they are in their coop and run for most of the day. I will try to keep them happy and stress free,and hope that it is not Mareks.

Again thank you so much!

 

[Eggcessive]

The sooner the refrigerated (not frozen) body gets to the lab, the better the results may be. It can be taken or sent, so you need to contact the poultry lab right away for any details of how to send the body. I would take it today if possible, or ship overnight. Usually freezer packs are used in a styrofoam cooler. Here is an older thread with pictures of how this person sends a body:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/how-to-send-a-bird-for-a-necropsy-pictures.799747/

In this article the first 3 paragraphs may help your to send the body:
http://www.metzerfarms.com/PoultryLabs.cfm

 

[rebrascora]

Wow! That is a ridiculous price for Virkon S!!!! It used to just be a couple of £s for a sachet that diluted in a bucket of water. I wonder if there are any vets that could sell you a small amount.... I am guessing that price is for a bulk purchase. Clearly that is not cost effective for such a small flock. I would definitely use the vacuum cleaner to suck out as much dust as possible. I think I may have read that Oxine will kill Marek's.... I'm not entirely sure what Oxine actually is ..... I have not seen it for sale here in the UK or perhaps it is branded differently, but have read many posts about people using it in various ways for their poultry in the USA. I don't know if you can get that in Canada, but I would guess it is cheaper.
I would imagine that you submit the form in the box with the sample..... Maybe put it in a zip lock bag or you could ring the place you are sending her body to, to clarify the situation.

 

[TheYLWFlock]

The sooner the refrigerated (not frozen) body gets to the lab, the better the results may be. It can be taken or sent, so you need to contact the poultry lab right away for any details of how to send the body. I would take it today if possible, or ship overnight. Usually freezer packs are used in a styrofoam cooler. Here is an older thread with pictures of how this person sends a body:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/how-to-send-a-bird-for-a-necropsy-pictures.799747/

In this article the first 3 paragraphs may help your to send the body:
http://www.metzerfarms.com/PoultryLabs.cfm

Thank you, we will get all of the supplies today, and send her off this afternoon.

Wow! That is a ridiculous price for Virkon S!!!! It used to just be a couple of £s for a sachet that diluted in a bucket of water. I wonder if there are any vets that could sell you a small amount.... I am guessing that price is for a bulk purchase. Clearly that is not cost effective for such a small flock. I would definitely use the vacuum cleaner to suck out as much dust as possible. I think I may have read that Oxine will kill Marek's.... I'm not entirely sure what Oxine actually is ..... I have not seen it for sale here in the UK or perhaps it is branded differently, but have read many posts about people using it in various ways for their poultry in the USA. I don't know if you can get that in Canada, but I would guess it is cheaper.
I would imagine that you submit the form in the box with the sample..... Maybe put it in a zip lock bag or you could ring the place you are sending her body to, to clarify the situation.

Yes that’s what I was thinking, but I wasn’t sure if that was the usual price. It is bulk, it’s for 10lb.

 

[oregonkat]

@TheYLWFlock, so sorry for your loss but thank you very, very much for posting here. This thread will be incredibly informative for others in the future, myself very much included here! Please be sure to post the results of the necropsy. Thank you also to all you supremely helpful, knowledgable people on BYC. This truly is an amazing resource!

 

[rebrascora]

It is bulk, it’s for 10lb.

You only need an ounce or two which is what used to be in a sachet, so I guess that price will be correct for that bulk amount. Vets used to use it all the time for horse wounds etc until they started using Hibiscrub (chlorohexidine) but I don't think that will work on Marek's. I believe Virkon S is now mainly used for preventing the spread of serious viral diseases on farms like Foot and Mouth and then of course they need large volumes like that.