Please help with diagnosis

[Waterfaery]

Hi,

I'm a long time reader but sad to say that my first post is about a horrible thing that happened to my flock this morning. We had a mixed flock of 6 different birds, including 1 rooster and 5 hens. This morning, the rooster and one hen died suddenly and one of the other hens is now sick. The vet was quite useless really and didn't know much about chickens. I hope someone on here can help figure out what the problem is, as I really want to save the sick hen and the 3 others, as well as prevent such a thing from happening again.

These are the symptoms and details about the birds:

Isis – lavender araucana approx 10 months old

• off the lay for a couple of months but otherwise active and normal
• a bit lethargic and slow on Thursday evening, but not noticeable enough that we thought anything of it until afterwards
• found dead on Friday morning just outside the coop
• green diarrhoea beside dead body

Ruairí – black orpington rooster approx 1 year old

• had bumblefoot, which we were planning on taking him to the vet for next week
• otherwise fine, healthy and active right up until Friday morning
• found close to Isis' body on Friday morning
• unable to stand up – legs not working at all
• wings flapping
• head drooped to one side, eyes closing
• died within 5 minutes of being found

Féileacán – black + white hamburg approx 1 year old

• no noticeable symptoms at all until Friday morning, after death of the other two
• limping, especially on right leg
• took to vet – vet said both thighs were hot and inflamed
• unable to diagnose
• treated with antibiotics (Baytril), anti inflammatories (Metacam) and Baycox (to cover all bases, she said)
• currently isolated from remaining flock
• hobbling around, still limping and legs a bit shaky, no improvement since treatment
• pecking, scratching, eating and drinking as normal

Remaining flock:
Lucy – frizzle bantam cross approx 18 months old
Buttercup – shaver cross approx 15 months old
Aoife – blue orpington approx 9 months old

These three seem unaffected so far. We're treating them with the same medication as Féileacán and have them separated from her at the moment.

We are totally devastated. This was our first time keeping chickens and they were such beloved pets. We started with Lucy and Buttercup in April last year and added the others gradually over the next couple of months. Aoife was our last addition in July.

Interestingly, the three affected birds all came from the same breeder, although I don't know if that means anything, as we have had them for so long now.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Nambroth]

Just be aware that the epsom salts will loosen her stool further, so it's very important that she say well hydrated right now. Check her crop often to make sure she is drinking if you don't see her drink regularly.

 

[Eggcessive]

She has been drinking but at the moment she's just sitting around under a bush not doing anything. They are all doing that, though. It's a hot afternoon and they often get lazy at this time of day.

Should I leave out the epsom salts? What about molasses? What does that do?

I would remove them. If your sick one won't eat or drink, I would consider tube feeding her. A 60 cc syringe with a piece of aquarium tubing can be a tube feeding apparatus--here is a link about it: https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/805728/go-team-tube-feeding

 

[Eggcessive]

Be sure and keep the sick one in the shade, and make her take water. The disease takes hours to days to affect them. Then if they live for 48 hours they should recover. I can't find anything about only one-sided paralysis. One way to positively ID this is if the 3rd eyelid or nictitating membrane becomes paralysized which looks like a white film across the eye, that is botulism. Two more links to read:
http://poultrymanagent.weebly.com/uploads/1/6/3/2/16324570/021.pdf
http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/publications/field_manual/chapter_38.pdf

 

[Nambroth]

Very sorry for your troubles. It does not seem like Marek's I have experienced (and a lab confirmed the same) because with classic Marek's, debilitation is gradual -- first slightly unsteady on their feet for a few days, then over a week, two weeks, lose control of their legs . . . the bird eats normal with a good appetite & experiences no pain as can be discerned. This is not what you have going on (all this has transpired in a day or so for you). It seems everything gets attributed to Marek's. I would leave the Marek's idea / discussion.

Sometimes it goes this way, and sometimes they seem fine and then go downhill and pass within only 2-3 days. That happened with my roo, and he was confirmed Marek's via both tissue sample and PCR (DNA blood) testing. He also went off of feed the last two days. He would act interested, but then not actually eat. Not all birds with Marek's display similarly, sadly. Lesions on the sciatic nerve cause the paralysis, but organ failure is from lymphomas, and they can be slow or very aggressive, depending on many factors.

Thanks,

Yes, one of the first things we did was have a good look around at everything. They did have access to black nightshade but, from what we researched, the symptoms don't match. There was a hedgehog carcass in the compost heap so botulism was a likely possibility if it was any type of poisoning and it certainly seems like that could be what killed the first two.

However, Féileacán is only affected on one side and she seems to be holding her right leg in the typical Marek's position. But I hope you're right. The sudden onset immediately after the death of the other two just doesn't add up. I'm just very confused.

Whatever it is, I'm concerned about her intake of fluid and nutrition. She has had a small bit of yoghurt, but just a few pecks. Yesterday she gobbled up everything we gave her. She's pecking periodically today but not taking in very much. I've read that that can be a Marek's thing, too. Can anyone confirm that?

She's currently lying down with her head right down against her breast. She has been panting a bit too. I don't know what that means. It only started within the last hour.

The fact that she is getting up and moving around even a little is honestly encouraging. I really am hoping it was botulism toxin and it's just taking her a while to recover. It's possible!! Feed her whatever she will eat, especially things like the eggs you've been offering, which are packed with nutrition for her weak body. If you can get your hands on some live mealworms or crickets.. or similar feeder insect, you can try offering them. Even when my roo was dying, he tried to eat juicy mealworms.

You are right. Sometimes with Marek's birds will seem somewhat interested in feed, but will not 'connect' with it, or otherwise will peck and just seem to have no "appetite". You can see this with Marek's.. but also other illnesses, too, if the bird does not feel well. She is panting-- is it hot? Does she just seem too warm, or as if she is struggling to breathe well?

Again, I am not trying to scare you with the suggestion of Marek's. It may well not be Marek's, but it's just something you have to keep in mind, just in case.

Hoping the best for your girl. I'm hoping it's not Marek's. Botulism is scary, and I'm truly sorry you lost birds to it (possibly) but at least one can take steps to avoid it in the future.

 

[Nambroth]

Yes, there are many forms of Marek's but many people assume Marek's and call it Marek's forever more -- however, very few actually go through the trouble of having a lab confirm it. I have had deaths, sudden and as you describe. Everyone would tell me, "Marek's." I sent to the lab, and it was not. Actually, the only time I have been correct is when I knew it was Marek's, the classic form. The OP's problem does not in any way seem like the Marek's that I have had a lab confirm. Only a lab can confirm it. It will not hurt the OP to treat for botulism and if it works, then she has saved her bird. If it is one of the other forms of Marek's, then there is NOTHING she can do anyway -- however, IMHO, the dead hedgehog in the compost pile is a "smoking gun."

I am not debating UC-Davis. There is a reason the commercial industry vaccinates for Marek's in the egg! The commercial industry was losing 2-5% of their birds prior to the vaccines. I was losing a bird or two each year from Marek's (I always sent to the lab dead birds for a few years). I started breeding from older fowl and have not had a Marek's case for 2 years. I am not willing to concede that every death is from Marek's. All the OP's symptoms actually match botulism: Damerow says "a poisoned bird gradually becomes paralyzed from the feet up. Initially the bird sits around or limps if you make it move. As paralysis progresses through its body, its wings droop and its neck goes limp -- whereas in "transient paralytic Marek's (called 'pseudo-botulism') or 'false botulism' birds recover quickly" -- NOT SO IN OP's birds-- I am happy to explain more from Damerow . . . .

However, my rooster that passed away from Marek's had lab confirmation via many tests, all came back positive. I can show you scans of all of the lab work I got back. It cost me a small fortune because I wanted to be 100% sure. And he went from happy, healthy, and active to dead within days. It CAN happen quickly. It does not always. But it can.
I don't want to argue, and I respect that many people diagnose without confirmation and it can be frustrating, but it's not quite so black and white, and I don't want anyone to be mislead.

 

[Eggcessive]

Welcome to BYC. Sorry for your loss. I would wonder if your bird may have botulism or Mareks disease. Since the two died and one is now sick, I would try to rule out botulism first. It is caused by eating vegetation or animal/fish remains, and causes paralysis which starts in the feet and moves upward in the body. It will kill quickly, but many will recover. Please Google botulism in chickens and look for the first link--it should be the poultry site.

 

[Saerie]

So sorry to hear about this.
I know of a disease that matches those symptoms. It has some long scientific name but I know it as simply Thick leg disease. I don't know of any cure. But it is an inherited disease, so only the birds in your flock from that breeder will be affected, if I'm right. Let me know if any of the other birds get sick.

 

[Waterfaery]

Hi,

Thanks for the responses. I had a look at your suggestions.

Thanks Saerie. None of the affected chickens' legs are thick. The one who's sick now has long, slender legs and they look the same as ever, although they are a bit wobbly. I've been too upset to look but my partner has examined the corpses and the legs are normal. Also, the three came from the same breeder but there is no way they could be related as they are all totally different breeds.

Thanks Eggcessive. The vet seemed to think it wasn't Marek's disease because she said they are too old to get it. Is that right? Does it only affect chicks? As to the botulism, I don't know how to start ruling it out. What should I look for? It does seem possible, as my partner had recently turned over our compost heap and the chickens often eat out of it. There was a dead hedgehog in there. Could this be the cause? I never realised it was unsafe to let them near the compost. We're going to cover it up now.

If it is that and those three ate something infected with botulism, do you think the one who's sick now will survive? The other two died very quickly so she would surely have died at the same time if it was any type of poisoning, wouldn't she? They went from being fine to dying within an extremely short space of time but she has been hobbling around all day with no signs of deterioration. Maybe she didn't eat as much of it?

From googling I've also found Mycoplasma and Staph. Does anyone know anything about these? Are they a possibility or can I rule them out?

Thanks.

 

[casportpony]

Sorry for your losses.

With all due respect to your vet, she is wrong about your birds being too old to have Marek's, just have her call one of the avian pathologists at The UC Davis Tulare Lab - (559) 688-7543 and they explain it to her

. I have a necropsy report that lists the cause of death in my 3 year old hen as Marek's and I recently just lost a 2-3 year old rooster to it.

-Kathy