Please help with diagnosis

[seminolewind]

With Marek's sometimes they are wasting away for months looking perfectly normal, then they die. It can happen at any age. The older the bird, it gets less common. But it's happened to me and others.

The only way you'll know for sure is a necropsy. A regular vet doesn't have the facilities to test for Marek's.
I've had 2 die of botulism. A dead mouse. They just fell off the perch dead the next morning.

 

[Waterfaery]

Thanks seminolewind,

With Marek's, I think it would surely be very unlikely that two birds would be wasting away for months and then die within a couple of hours, shortly followed by another bird showing first signs of symptoms that morning. From what I've read, it can occur in older birds but it's less common. So for it to suddenly affect 3 older birds in this way would surely be odd. Maybe I'm wrong, but I hope not.

I don't think I'll be able to get a necropsy done quickly enough to save Féileacán, so I need to figure out what else to do for her today . Can anyone advise me? I really need advice for treatment now because I think I need to act quickly.

If it's Marek's, there's nothing I can do. If it's a bacterial infection, the Baytril will hopefully cover it. I'm hoping the Metacam will keep her out of pain. I doubt the Baycox is necessary but I'll keep it up, just in case. So far, none of the medication seems to be helping. I'm scared that she seems worse. The limp is worse and she seems unable to control her right leg very much at all. She is still standing and hobbling around, though, and she's eating and drinking. She also now has the green diarrhoea, which she didn't have yesterday. I'm so scared for her.

If it's botulism or other poisoning, I don't know what to do. I've read about flushing the system but I'm scared to do that in case it's not poisoning, as she will need all of her nutrition and strength. Also, does anyone know if the flushing needs to be done soon after exposure? Is it too late?

I had hoped that, since she made it when the others died, she would be ok, but she is getting worse, not better. Can the same poisoning event kill two birds instantly and kill the other one slowly?

She also seems to be only affected on one side. Is that a symptom of botulism? She is able to use her toes on her right leg to scratch, although they look a bit limp and flaccid when she lifts that leg to walk. It seems to be affecting her more in the upper leg and hip. The leg also turns inwards slightly and she keeps stepping on her right foot with her left foot.

 

[casportpony]

If they were wasting away for months I don't think it can be botulism.

-Kathy

 

[BigECarter]

Www.hencam.com has some articles that might help. Charcoal or Epsom salts, I think.

 

[Nambroth]

Allthough it's important not to rule out Marek's until you know for sure, this does sound a bit more like botulism than Marek's. I am not a professional, so take this opinion with a grain of salt, so to speak.

Botulism toxins can kill birds quickly, like what you experienced, or not-- it depends on how much toxin the bird ingested. If it is indeed botulism, your sickly hen that is still alive may not have eaten as much toxin as the ones that passed away, and it is likely she will recover. Botulism can occur, as mentioned, in rotting vegetation, but is more often found in rotting carcasses and resulting maggots and larvae that feed on the rotting flesh can eat and store the toxin in their bodies with no ill effect, but if a chicken or duck were to eat a gut-load of these maggots, the bacteria can cause botulism in them.
Botulism needs anaerobic conditions-- that is, the lack of oxygen, and so it is more commonly seen in situations such as rotting vegetation or animals at the edges of waterways and in swampy conditions(this is how ducks so often get it) and sometimes in places such as compost piles if they are not turned.

Here's some reading on Botulism:
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/poultry/botulism/overview_of_botulism_in_poultry.html
http://www.avianweb.com/botulism.html

If you suspect Marek's, here is some information to get you started: https://www.backyardchickens.com/a/the-great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq

Either way, keeping them on healthy feed, keeping their stress low, and keeping them away from any potential sources of botulism bacteria, for now, is a good idea. Again, if it's botulism, your surviving birds (even the sick one) are unlikely to die directly from the toxins at this point as it has been over 24 hours, so flushing is probably not necessary.

Good luck to you, I am hoping for the best!!

 

[Waterfaery]

If they were wasting away for months I don't think it can be botulism.

-Kathy

I don't think they were wasting away for months. They were perfectly active until the evening before they died. Seminolewind suggested it as a possibility that they could have had Marek's for a long time without me knowing.

Www.hencam.com has some articles that might help. Charcoal or Epsom salts, I think.

Thanks for that. That's another good site.


I appreciate everyone's help, thanks.

 

[Waterfaery]

Thanks Nambroth,

That's very encouraging. I had read that if they make it past 24-36 hours they'll probably recover from botulism, although I'm worried that she's worse today than yesterday, so I don't know if that makes it different.

I'm going to try some molasses and epsom salts in the water. I don't think I'll do the whole flushing thing, as it sounds very harsh, but a bit in her water won't do any harm, will it?

 

[casportpony]

Is she drinking?

-Kathy

 

[Waterfaery]

She has been drinking but at the moment she's just sitting around under a bush not doing anything. They are all doing that, though. It's a hot afternoon and they often get lazy at this time of day.

Should I leave out the epsom salts? What about molasses? What does that do?

 

[Eggcessive]

I have been off the computer much of the day, but I am still convinced this is botulism, especially with there being a hedgehog carcass nearby. I agree with Nambroth in that the molasses and epsom salt flushes are too late. Supportive care is what is most necessary--helping her eat and drink. Since her lower extremeties are weak, her water and food need to be right in front of her in a small area. Sorry I couldn't post links when you first posted, but I'm glad you looked up botulism. They also called botulism limberneck because as paralysis progresses upward in the body, they have a hard time holding up the neck, so it droops or lays on the floor. Someone else recently had a case of this, and their rooster survived, so I'm hoping your hen does well. I'm glad none of the others have shown symptoms so far. Here are 2 more links about botulism including the first one I recommended: http://www.thepoultrysite.com/diseaseinfo/19/botulism
http://www.avianweb.com/botulism.html