Please help with diagnosis

[Waterfaery]

Thanks Kathy,

I'll try my best to weigh her later when we bring her back inside. We have a small kitchen scales so we'll see how we get on. She weighed 1.28kg when the vet weighed her on Friday. It's difficult to estimate the volume in the crop. She definitely hasn't had even close to 30ml of pure water, but she may have had about that much through the mash. She's really only taken a couple of sips of water today, but all of the food we have given her has been liquidy in some way. Her breast bone is protruding a lot, so I don't think that's good.

We brought her outside to see if she would exercise a bit and maybe forage, since she was sort of trying to scratch and peck at the duvet. We were surprised that she's certainly still able to move fast. She made a beeline for her favourite bush and had no trouble. She's been sitting under it in the dust, preening herself. She has stood up once or twice since then and tried to scratch with her bad leg, but quickly stumbled and sat back down again.

 

[casportpony]

A prominent breast bone means that his has been going on for a quite awhile. Of course it's not good, but it's not the end of the world either. I am available by phone if you decide you want to tube and need help. Have you looked at the tube feeding link yet?

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/805728/go-team-tube-feeding

-Kathy

 

[cgmccary]

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but that's not true...

In addition to the "classic" form, I've seen *many* others.

Examples:

• Fine one day, can't walk the next, dead in three days even with tube feeding.
• Unsteady one day, on their side the next then dead in 24 hours.
• Fine one day, not eating the next, crop not clearing, dead in a week even with tube feeding, but able to walk the whole time.

Marek's *is* one of the leading causes of death that UC Davis sees in chickens. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it is Marek's, and I really hope it's not, but all of the symptoms do match Marek's.

If this were my bird I would be tube feeding it just because I wouldn't want one to die from dehydration or starvation, which is usually what kills them, not the disease.

-Kathy

Yes, there are many forms of Marek's but many people assume Marek's and call it Marek's forever more -- however, very few actually go through the trouble of having a lab confirm it. I have had deaths, sudden and as you describe. Everyone would tell me, "Marek's." I sent to the lab, and it was not. Actually, the only time I have been correct is when I knew it was Marek's, the classic form. The OP's problem does not in any way seem like the Marek's that I have had a lab confirm. Only a lab can confirm it. It will not hurt the OP to treat for botulism and if it works, then she has saved her bird. If it is one of the other forms of Marek's, then there is NOTHING she can do anyway -- however, IMHO, the dead hedgehog in the compost pile is a "smoking gun."

I am not debating UC-Davis. There is a reason the commercial industry vaccinates for Marek's in the egg! The commercial industry was losing 2-5% of their birds prior to the vaccines. I was losing a bird or two each year from Marek's (I always sent to the lab dead birds for a few years). I started breeding from older fowl and have not had a Marek's case for 2 years. I am not willing to concede that every death is from Marek's. All the OP's symptoms actually match botulism: Damerow says "a poisoned bird gradually becomes paralyzed from the feet up. Initially the bird sits around or limps if you make it move. As paralysis progresses through its body, its wings droop and its neck goes limp -- whereas in "transient paralytic Marek's (called 'pseudo-botulism') or 'false botulism' birds recover quickly" -- NOT SO IN OP's birds-- I am happy to explain more from Damerow . . . .

 

[Nambroth]

Yes, there are many forms of Marek's but many people assume Marek's and call it Marek's forever more -- however, very few actually go through the trouble of having a lab confirm it. I have had deaths, sudden and as you describe. Everyone would tell me, "Marek's." I sent to the lab, and it was not. Actually, the only time I have been correct is when I knew it was Marek's, the classic form. The OP's problem does not in any way seem like the Marek's that I have had a lab confirm. Only a lab can confirm it. It will not hurt the OP to treat for botulism and if it works, then she has saved her bird. If it is one of the other forms of Marek's, then there is NOTHING she can do anyway -- however, IMHO, the dead hedgehog in the compost pile is a "smoking gun."

I am not debating UC-Davis. There is a reason the commercial industry vaccinates for Marek's in the egg! The commercial industry was losing 2-5% of their birds prior to the vaccines. I was losing a bird or two each year from Marek's (I always sent to the lab dead birds for a few years). I started breeding from older fowl and have not had a Marek's case for 2 years. I am not willing to concede that every death is from Marek's. All the OP's symptoms actually match botulism: Damerow says "a poisoned bird gradually becomes paralyzed from the feet up. Initially the bird sits around or limps if you make it move. As paralysis progresses through its body, its wings droop and its neck goes limp -- whereas in "transient paralytic Marek's (called 'pseudo-botulism') or 'false botulism' birds recover quickly" -- NOT SO IN OP's birds-- I am happy to explain more from Damerow . . . .

However, my rooster that passed away from Marek's had lab confirmation via many tests, all came back positive. I can show you scans of all of the lab work I got back. It cost me a small fortune because I wanted to be 100% sure. And he went from happy, healthy, and active to dead within days. It CAN happen quickly. It does not always. But it can.
I don't want to argue, and I respect that many people diagnose without confirmation and it can be frustrating, but it's not quite so black and white, and I don't want anyone to be mislead.

 

[casportpony]

I've had necropsies done at UC Davis, and I've also done my own gross necropsies, so I don't just assume it's Marek's. Luckily for me, necropsies are free in CA.

-Kathy

 

[Eggcessive]

Many animals pant when they are hot, but also because of blowing off excess carbon dioxide in the body. If it is botulism, there could be all sorts of biological processes going on that is above my expertise. I don't want to talk you into tube feeding, but the aquarium tubing from a pet store, and a 35 or 60 ml syringe from the feed store may cost $4. Having there at home would make it easier if you needed it. I'm so glad that she is hanging on--it would be good if it is botulism. Most people that have a chicken who recovers never knows positively whether there was botulism or not, but finding the hedgehog carcass gives you hope. Not to sound harsh, but make sure that the other 2 chicken carcasses are destroyed or buried very deeply, and preferably off your property, since they may be poisonous with botulism toxin. You probably have already done that.

 

[casportpony]

From the AAAP Avian Disease Manual

BOTULISM
(Limberneck; Western Duck Sickness)
DEFINITION
Botulism is an intoxication caused by ingestion of the toxins of

Clostridium botulinum.
OCCURRENCE
1. In birds, botulism occurs frequently in captive pheasants and wild ducks and occasionally in chickens.
Except for vultures, most birds are susceptible. Most outbreaks in birds occur in semimature or mature
chicken flocks. Many mammals, including humans, are susceptible.
2. In waterfowl (especially wild ducks) occurrence is related to shallow water conditions in lakes with
alkaline water and much decaying vegetation.
3. In some intense broiler rearing areas there is a recurring form of botulism on certain premises. Outbreaks
occur in almost every new flock with a seasonal high incidence in the warmer months.
HISTORICAL INFORMATION
1. The first report of botulism in chickens was made in the United States in 1917. Within 25 years the disease
had been reported frequently in chickens and in turkeys and waterfowl.
2. During the first half of this century, humans and chickens sometimes died from eating improperly canned
foods containing the toxins of

C. botulinum. Small farm flocks and home canning are now out of vogue
and botulism is seldom seen in farm flocks or humans. However, botulism is still an important disease of
wild waterfowl, especially ducks. Botulism seldom occurs in well-managed commercially raised poultry.
ETIOLOGY
1. Botulism is caused by ingestion of the preformed toxins of

C. botulinum in feeds, foods, dead poultry, or
toxin-containing maggots. Although

C. botulinum itself is not pathogenic and is commonly found in the
environment and in the intestinal tract, under ill-defined circumstances it colonizes the intestines, produces
toxin and causes botulism.
2. The toxin of

C. botulinum is extremely potent. The minimum lethal dose (MLD) for guinea pigs is 0.00012
mg/kg subcutaneously. (The MLD for cobra venom is 0.002 mg/kg). The toxin is relatively heat stable.
3. Based on the specific toxins produced and certain other criteria, there are eight types of

C. botulinum. Type
C is most common in poultry outbreaks although other types have occurred
4. Botulism should not be confused with pseudobotulism of chickens. Pseudobotulism closely resembles
botulism except that affected birds almost invariably recover within 24 hours. Pseudobotulism is now
considered to be a transient manifestation of Marek’s disease.
EPIDEMIOLOGY
1.

C. botulinum is ubiquitous in nature and commonly present in feeds. When ideal conditions for growth
occur, large amounts of exotoxin may be formed. If adequate toxin is consumed, botulism will develop.
Improperly sterilized canned fruits and vegetables, spoiled animal feeds, and decaying poultry carcasses
can contain enough exotoxin to be highly lethal, even when taken in small amounts.
74

BOTULISM
2. It is speculated that wild waterfowl contract botulism in the following ways:
A. The toxin may be consumed in decaying vegetation in shallow, alkaline lakes as they dry up or are
created by irrigation during the summer. Alternatively, it may be that the toxin is in larvae or
crustaceans in the vegetation. Invertebrates killed by anaerobic conditions contain toxin from
growth of

C. botulinum within them and may be consumed by some waterfowl.
B. Ducks that die from various causes may be invaded after death by

C. botulinum normally present
in their intestine. Toxins are formed in the cadavers. Ducks that feed on bits of the cadavers or on
maggots from the cadavers may be poisoned.
3. A growing body of evidence suggests that

C. botulinum type C can produce toxin within the intestinal tract
of the live broiler chicken. This type of botulism has been termed toxico-infectious botulism.
CLINICAL SIGNS
Signs appear within a few hours to a few days. In chickens signs include drowsiness, weakness, and
progressive loss of control of the legs, wings, and neck [

Fig. 1; Botulism; Cornell U].



Paresis soon progresses
to paralysis and the recumbent bird closes its eyes and appears to be in a deep coma. Fine tremors of muscles
and feathers occur in some birds. Death may occur shortly or may be delayed for a few hours. Most visibly
affected birds die.
LESIONS
Most birds with botulism are free of gross lesions. Rarely, in birds that have lived for some time, there may
be mild enteritis. The upper digestive tract (especially the crop) may contain putrid ingesta or maggots but is
usually empty.
DIAGNOSIS
1. In chickens and turkeys diagnosis is based largely on history, signs, the presence of putrid feed or maggots
in the digestive tract, looseness of feathers (chickens only), and the absence of lesions. Finding a decaying
cadaver upon which birds have been feeding may assist in diagnosis.
2. Saline gizzard or intestinal washings or blood serum from an affected bird can be tested for toxicity. Either
can be injected into mice that have been inoculated with protective antiserum and into mice without
antiserum. Results should clarify diagnosis.
3. A group of affected birds can be treated with polyvalent antitoxin. Recovery in a high percent of the birds
tends to confirm a diagnosis of botulism. Unfortunately, commercial availability of antitoxins may be a
problem.
CONTROL
1. The disease can be avoided by preventing access of poultry to any source of toxin. Sick and dead birds
should be picked up regularly and frequently because they are a common source of toxin.
2. Type C toxoid can be used to immunize birds, although this is seldom done.
3. Wild ducks can be baited or frightened away from shallow lakes. Water sometimes can be pumped into
shallow lakes to raise the water level and botulism may not occur.
4. On broiler farms where botulism is enzootic, the prophylactic use of selenium and antibiotics has been
effective. They also aid in treatment of affected flocks.
75

BOTULISM
TREATMENT
1. Antitoxin can be given to valuable affected birds. Results often are good although this will depend on the
specificity of the antisera. Type C antitoxin is usually given. Polyvalent antisera (especially types A and
C) are preferred but often difficult to obtain. It is important that the treated birds have access to fresh,
clean, nonalkaline water.
2. Because toxico-infectious botulism has not been experimentally induced, treatment of this condition is
based solely on the apparent response to therapy during field outbreaks of this condition. Treatment of
flocks with sodium selenite and vitamins A, D, and E has been reported to reduce mortality. Treatments
with bacitracin, streptomycin, chlortetracycline, and penicillin have also been reported to be efficacious.
76

Discalimer: Never had botulism here, so no personal experience with it.

-Kathy

 

[Eggcessive]

Oh, I keep forgetting to mention the part about the feathers coming out easily in botulism. That is another sign. Meant to post that yesterday.

 

[Waterfaery]

She weighs 1.22kg this morning. Her crop feels the same as yesterday. Does that mean she's not emptying it? She has had a small bit to eat. She's standing up and pecking at some mash at the moment. She seems to eat for a couple of minutes and then stops. When this happens, she won't take it out of my hand, but then, if I wait a few minutes and try again, she gets interested again and stands up. Altogether, I don't think she's taken in more than 5 or 10g of food yet this morning.

Last night, my partner went around collecting insects. She went crazy for them, so we're going to go and find more now.

There are a couple of solid poos under where she roosted last night, but she's done a couple of soft ones this morning. A couple of days ago, they were watery with a little solid bit in the middle. Now, they are sort of mushy all over. They are brown and white, with no green.

She seems similar to yesterday in how much she can stand and walk, although she seems a bit less reluctant to stand than before and a bit more reluctant to walk. She seems nervous of walking, probably because she doesn't want to fall over. She was much happier taking the chance at walking when we had her out in the open, so I don't know if confinement is the best thing for her, although it's not very warm out again today so I don't want to expose her to the cold. She's in a 1.2x1.2m enclosure in our sitting room at the moment.

I tried pulling out feathers the other day, but I couldn't. I didn't pull very hard, though, as I'm afraid of hurting her. I still can't find any examples of botulism only affecting one side.

Thanks everyone for all of the responses and thanks, Kathy, for your kind offer to help over the phone. I have had a look at the links. I need to go into town because I want to get some melon and some vitamins for her. I will see if I can source the tube feeding equipment in case I need it. It still scares me but I might do it as a last resort, if I can't get her to take enough by hand. Is there anything else I should buy for her while I'm in town? What about the hypericum? Is it dangerous to give to her in case she doesn't have Marek's? And is selenium dangerous if she doesn't have botulism? Should I keep giving her Baytril or stop? The vet only prescribed it for 2 days but I don't trust that vet at all. What else can I try giving her?

 

[Eggcessive]

Selenium can be dangerous if too much is given. Most people recommend giving it in vitamin E with selenium capsules. The dosages I have found on other links for wry neck are 25 micrograms daily. I have also read that eggs contain selenium, as well as the dirt outside. I would keep giving the Baytril since you have it. Sometimes antibiotics are prescribed for botulism, and that is the best one out there. Thanks for the update, and best wishes for some improvement.