POLISH THREAD Talk about your Polish and post pics of your Polish

[colowyo0809]

So, I'm pretty sure this is a Polish and also 50% that it is a Roo. Any thoughts? Age possible?

thanks!

 

[ThePolishPrincess]

Oh yeah-that's a Polish roo alright! As for age, it's not a reliable practice, but how large are his spurs? I'd guess he's roughly a year old if what I'm seeing on his legs are spurs.

 

[colowyo0809]

Quote:
sweet! thanks!

 

[scbatz33]

Read through the posts on genetics...wondering does the same hold true for tolbunt as for colors like chocolate and lavender? Does anyone know what the color genetics are? is this a completely seperate variety? Also what makes the repor on this variety harder to come by than others? or is it just that so few exhist that those who have them don't give them up easily? I thought I read somewhere that this variety has more genetic issues. Again, is this because there are so few of them and thus the genetics are not very deverse or are they just a "weaker" variety genetically?

 

[acid_chipmunk]

Quote:
Tolbunt is like lav, where if you breed tolbunt to tolbunt, you get tolbunt. You can create a tolbunt looking bird with a tolbunt and a gold laced, then breeed back to tolbunt to get closer. Keep in mind that the majority of tolbunt here in the US aren't up to the standard that was written in 2005, I know mine aren't.

Tolbunt is hard to come by because only one flock was imported into the US and those of us that do have them, hatch every egg that is layed and keep them to grow out before selling. (That is those of us who are in it to improve the variety, not for the money they command). Genetic issues are because they are so inbred. Crooked toes and poor fertility are very common with tolbunts. This is why some people, like my DH and I, are using a GL female to get some more genetics into our birds.

I will get my DH on here to explain better...

 

[Sportsterjeep]

Yes, it is a completely seperate variety. It was developed in Europe awhile back. The new standard for Tolbunt's (USA) that was proposed is essentially a gold laced bird with a white tip feather. Genetically, it would be crossing a gold laced with a mottled. The old standard was for a bird that every feather started at the base and was a blob of mahogany, a blob of black, and a blob of white on the tip. That, I believe is what the european standard calls for. Disqualifications were for a bird with two or more pure white wing or tail feathers, or a bird that was overall to light or to dark. Genetically there are fertility issues, crooked toes, birds prone to sickness, and some other issues. The line that was imported into the US was not one of the greatest lines. It went through seriously heavy inbreeding and caused major fertility issues. These fertility issues alone have caused many people to give up on the line altogether. The breeders that are still working on them are trying to fix these issues. That's one of the main reason you don't see eggs for sale hardly ever, and chicks very seldom. Most of the breeders are trying to improve upon the bad genes and they need everything that they can get to hatch put in a growout pen for evaluation. People have outcrossed them to all sorts of different things to attempt and improve on them. I've heard houdans, gold laced polish, silver laced polish, wc black polish, and other varieties. Some of these outcrosses were thought out and done correctly, others not so much. We breed Tolbunts, first for health and genetic stability, and second to bring them closer to the standard. I've talked with one of Penn State Universities top poultry experts and picked his brain on how to best straighten out some of the genetic issues. He has years of experience in trying to stabilize genetic problems in birds. After talking to him, I have a plan in place, and it is going to take us a few years.
Another downfall with Tolbunts is that they don't hit point of lay until they are about a year in age. This is also when their coloring starts to get closer to what it will be for adulthood, however, it changes after the first molt and from my understanding, every molt thereafter. Some genetic issues also don't start appearing until the birds mature for awhile, and that's why everything hatched goes into a growout. It's not that the breeder is greedy or doesn't want to give up their stock, it's that they need to evaluate everything they can get to hatch.
My personal opinion is that too many people have come into this line haphazardly, bred them to whatever they felt like for an outcross, and then sold eggs or birds for the quick cash return. I've seen way to many people looking for a quick cash return by selling off Tobunt crosses that were mixed with whatever. These people normally don't breed them for very long because they don't put the work into making the line better. In all honesty, most get disgusted with the poor fertility and hatch rates and give it up before too long. We work hand in hand with Ultra1Classic (Bad Azz Silkies), and are breeding for a bird that's healthy, genetically sound, and can eventually be taken to the APA and be standardized. We will have fully grown birds at some point probably next fall that will be available. Obviously the very best will be turned back into our own breeding programs. Some will be distributed to a few breeders who we have already talked to or personally know and we believe will put the work into advancing them. One thing I've started to think about lately is what to do with some of the leftovers. There are always people looking for them because they are rare, pretty, different, etc. I have no problems selling the leftovers to people that are going to use them for nothing more than to add a little variety into their flock. The thought I have though is that many people will try to buy under this pretense and then turn around and become another Tolbunt cross seller, complete with the problems that we didn't sell it as a breeder to begin with. I've thought about taking all the ones that had some of the more prolific problems, like crooked toes, and giving them the "final cull". I don't like to do this with anything that is not hatched and raised specifically for a freezer camp bird. However, it is one way to effectively weed out the genetic problems. Another reason why you don't see many of them advertised is that people are constantly looking to get ahold of this breed. I get multiple emails every month from people finding my website and inquiring about eggs, chicks, and birds just from this breed. I believe that most other "known" Tolbunt breeders encounter this as well. As much as I didn't want to keep advanced lists, I have started to. I've also been contacted by some breeders from here on BYC. I'm going to be absolutely thrilled if I can get a 50% hatch rate this year on the line that I have. In all honesty, after I put the best back into the breeding pen and set up 2 other breeders with birds, I'm not expecting to have very many breeder quality birds left. Then comes the dillema of what to do with the leftover culls.
I'm open to sharing ideas, theories, and breeding experience with anyone that has these and has been working on them for awhile. What works for you, what doesn't, your observations, etc. Any questions from anyone, just ask and I'll do my best to answer or find the answer. One thing I do know from every line I've seen in the US, it's gonna be a long road till we work out all the problems and get the line standardized and accepted into the APA.

ETA: I missed something after rereading the original question. The genetic issues are because of the not so great line that was imported, massive inbreeding here in the states, and some bad outcrosses.

 

[sutillman]

So, if all the tolbunts in the US came from one original flock, how can they ever be bred without inbreeding? Does that make sense? I understand breeding to a GL to inprove coloring which is what I'm attempting to do now. But if all of my flock comes from one breeder, therefore I cannot breed them to each other, and everyone else got theirs from the same breeder originally, what other options are there? I hope this makes some sense to someone. It just seems like a dead end without some other diversity out there. I am just trying to find what direction I need to go with mine. Fortunately I was blessed with birds without crooked toes and so far have fairly good fertility.

 

[Buns]

Quote:
Update on the bantam polish chick colors in the photo I previously posted... although there was quite a bit of difference in their colors ALL of the lighter chicks are dun. Not one was khaki. A friend sent me a photo of a khaki chick (can be viewed on feathersite) and they are really super pale in comparison to the duns. I will definitely know next time. Thank you all for the opinions and also for the excellent explanation of dun and chocolate. My only comment would be that I do not find the word "dun" to be distasteful at all and I think it is a shame to cause so much confusion by calling a color (dun) by another name (chocolate) simply because some people find it to be more pleasant.

 

[Sportsterjeep]

Quote:
Essentially there was alot of inbreeding in the beginning. Outcrosses were made that expanded the gene pool, but very few breeders have stuck with it. Look at the amount of posts you see on this site alone of people who had them, then for whatever reason replaced them with something else. Outcrossing to the gl is the exact same thing we are doing. I'll try to send you an email tonight or tomorrow when I have a little more time. Just got home from work and have to go do chores.

 

[cmsdvm]

Quote:
Update on the bantam polish chick colors in the photo I previously posted... although there was quite a bit of difference in their colors ALL of the lighter chicks are dun. Not one was khaki. A friend sent me a photo of a khaki chick (can be viewed on feathersite) and they are really super pale in comparison to the duns. I will definitely know next time. Thank you all for the opinions and also for the excellent explanation of dun and chocolate. My only comment would be that I do not find the word "dun" to be distasteful at all and I think it is a shame to cause so much confusion by calling a color (dun) by another name (chocolate) simply because some people find it to be more pleasant.

If you're going to exhibit, or participate in the American show/breeding community, the term dun is not correct. They are white-crested chocolate or white-crested khakis. They must be entered correctly in their variety or will be disqualified. One has only to look at the current debate going on over the terms lavender vs self-blue, to know how strongly people feel about terminology. If your Polish will only be your pets, call them whatever you like.