Possibly An Internal Layer *GRAPHIC PICS*

[Mimi13]

@N F C Can you edit the title please?

Thank you very much.

 

[Kiki]

I'm reading...just sharing. Not saying anything yet.
https://www.wattagnet.com/articles/416-feeding-to-reduce-ascites-in-poultry

 

[Mimi13]

I'm reading...just sharing. Not saying anything yet.
https://www.wattagnet.com/articles/416-feeding-to-reduce-ascites-in-poultry

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What is so very strange is Butter did not exhibit any of these symptoms, well, other than the water belly, obviously.

 

[Kiki]

What is so very strange is Butter did not exhibit any of these symptoms, well, other than the water belly, obviously.View attachment 1954557

I wish you could get something tested for bacteria.
It's too late but boy how nice would it be to know for sure.

If you notice anyone else getting ill would you be willing to send them off for a necropsy?

 

[Kiki]

Do you still have the heart?

 

[Shadrach]

Good morning all~

Yesterday was the day I had been dreading for some time. It was the day Butter let me know she was ready, even though I wasn’t. I know this post will be long and I apologize, however it is also somewhat cathartic for me. Also, I hope to shed light as to what caused her demise and hope for some answers on such, so I’m calling on the experts to help. @azygous @coach723 @rebrascora @Texas Kiki @Wyorp Rock Y’all asked for pictures...so, I’m delivering.

For the past week Butter had not been able to get herself down off the roost/poop board and she had not left the run to venture out with the rest of the birds. This was the biggest sign I was looking for. She always stayed with her BFF’s, always!

I had wanted my son to euthanize her for me, but then I thought, nope, it’s something I’ve got to do, just me and my girl. It wasn’t easy, not even the thought of it as I got everything set up around on the other side of the house. I kept noticing myself sighing out loud, something I’m not aware of normally doing. I chose a spot away from all my other birds. This was something I didn’t want them to be around for. Butter had just finished her version of a dust bath - fat bellied girl style - so she was happy. I shook my canister of 5 grain scratch and they all came running. Butter slowly made her way out of the run. I spread a few fistfuls of scratch to keep all of them occupied while Butter and I slipped off. After I let her peck around a bit, I picked her up and we started walking toward the house, me talking to her and her talking to me with her sweet Buff Orpington coos.

I wrapped her in my towel and sat down. I asked the Lord to please make this quick and easy...for both of us. My prayer was granted and she was no longer suffering, but I was. I sat there for several minutes gaining my composure. I loved that little girl.

After a bit I put on my scientist face as I knew I had to find out what I had been wondering and speculating for a while now. Would I be correct or completely amiss?

Since she had begun molting, a lot of her feather shafts on her extremely tight abdomen were coming back ingrown. This was another reason something had to be done fairly quickly. I did lance the first one I found and unfurled the feather, but more and more were popping up. This had to be painful for her.

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I was curious to see her abdomen in relation to the rest of her body so I plucked what few feathers were there. Her belly was huge. She looked 9 months pregnant. Now remember, she was HARD as a rock, not squishy at all.

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Because of her extra large belly, I did not open her cavity like I normally would the birds I process, opting to go in right under her keel. Her belly was so tight, under such pressure, I made the cut very carefully.

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I thought I was videoing the actual cut, but I messed it up. I didn’t hit the record button until I tapped it to stop, which then began me recording setting the phone down! Gah! But I did get this clip.

Oh my dear Lord, Butter had been suffering from Ascites. If only I had known.

The placement of her organs looked differently to me. I don’t know if it was because of the higher cut or if it was the humongous bag of fluid. I still do not know what the bag was, but it was a completely enclosed bag filled with the tell-tale sign of amber colored, odorless fluid. The fluid was not around her organs at all. Most of the organs were underneath this bag. But I did notice the duodenum was laying on top of the bag (as viewed when I opened her), so it would have actually been underneath it while all the remaining intestines/organs were on top of the bag.

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Also, on the inside of the bag was a spot of tougher “membrane.” It was thicker and darker in that one spot. The spot would have been on the lowest side of the bag. (A darker spot can be seen in the picture of her body shot.) This is a picture of the area inside the bag.

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This bird had no fat in her body cavity, none at all, although there was a small amount around her heart. However, I did notice in several places a yellowing on a portion of the abdominal muscle just under the keel and then again on the gizzard and in between the gizzard and stomach, which seemed very small or empty to me.
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Once the fluid had completely drained and the bag set aside I could see the rest of the organs. I thought her liver looked good, not discolored or tumorous, as I would have expected with ascites. Isn’t a liver disease associated with ascites? This also is a good view of the bag that held the fluid, all emptied and folded up below. But in this picture I noticed something else alarming. I’m certain experienced eyes will pick it right up, but I will discuss it later.

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Here is a picture of her heart. Is this amount of fat on it considered detrimental?

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Her eggs are completely immature, which I guess is what is expected at this time of year, but Butter has not laid an egg in almost two years now. However, remember I was expecting to open her up to a yolk filled cavity. Not so. Anyway, this one picture leaves me with many, many questions. Zoom in on these areas.

First, to the upper right off the eggs the cavity shows to have brown speckles, which is also scattered throughout the rest of the cavity on all the visceral membrane.

Then, right below the eggs is something that looks wormlike in the picture. There were no worms in the body cavity that I saw.

And then right below to the right of the wormlike stuff is something that looks like a ladder. It reminds me of a small cartilage-like structure like the trachea. I have no idea what this is and did not even notice it when I had her open. I only noticed it in this picture. Any clues?

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Now to the unexpected findings that I referenced earlier.

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I noticed what appeared like worms in the ceca, so naturally I cut it open. Yep, I was correct. Tiny, thread-like worms. Eew! Cecal worms! That was a little unnerving.

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I even took a short clip. As a result I opened all other intestines but found no other worms. I guess they might have a special hide out that I’m not aware of. Shrug.

Maybe @casportpony can she’d light on this. Should I be concerned?

Now for those who might remember me mentioning this, Butter snatched my diamond stud earring at only 5 weeks old. I almost changed her name to Diamond. I have her gizzard in my fridge right now. I am going to go through it with a fine toothed comb. I probably won’t find anything, but hey, a girl can hope can’t she?

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One last thing I’ve noticed for several weeks was when she walked she would sometimes pick up her right leg really high, kind of like she had it caught on something and was lifting her leg to get it loose. I wondered if the spread of her belly was causing her thigh to maybe feel like it was popping out of joint.

As for my fat bellied, spur legged girl, she is no longer suffering. In hindsight, I guess I let her suffer too long, but she did not really slow down until this week. I knew when she wasn’t leaving the run it was because it hurt her to walk. It was her time. There will never be another Butter, US Alabama Approved #7716. RIP my sweet girl.

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Here she is with her BFF’s, Biscuit and Penny. Butter is in the girl in the top of the picture, with that booty stuck high in the air.

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And here she is (on the left) with Biscuit just lounging around...again.View attachment 1954520

Thank you all for any and all advice.

Oh Mimi, that's so sad.
With what you've produced above as a necropsy tour, Butter's death will if people can be bothered to read this help so many.
This is the best photographed necropsy I have seen. I think it's outstanding.
Could you please turn this into an article and put it in the learning center section. It's a first class piece of work imo.
Regarding the heart. When we process a chicken here naturally we get to see the internal organs. While the heart is carrying more fat than I see on the chickens here, to me that quantity of fat isn't life threatening. However, I'm not a vet and I wonder if it would be possible to get the pictures to a good avian vet and find out what they think of the amount of fat.
Regarding the worms. This is quite interesting. My vet doesn't speak English and my Catalan isn't up to technical or medical vocabulary. The first time I asked my vet to do a fecal float, I had taken her a normal poop sample. She looked very unhappy about the sample and tried to explain why. It took me a while to understand she wanted two samples, one of cecal poop and one of normal, so it would seem here at least that vets are aware that you need both to do a thorough check.
I hope you can find your ring.
Finally just a thank you. It's such a good write up.

 

[Mimi13]

I wish you could get something tested for bacteria.
It's too late but boy how nice would it be to know for sure.

If you notice anyone else getting ill would you be willing to send them off for a necropsy?

Yes, I would send them off. Getting ill as in how? Other than Butter, I euthanized one because of terrible sounding breathing. She was eaten alive with tumors in her liver. And another one of my original gals that died on her own. She was full of little cancerous tumors all inside. Both of these were in April of this year. And then poor Butter, who drew the fat Russian Roulette card. What do I need to look for? All of them appear to be healthy: appearance, poops, eating Purina Flock Raiser, minimal treats, roosting, bug free, etc.

 

[Mimi13]

Oh Mimi, that's so sad.
With what you've produced above as a necropsy tour, Butter's death will if people can be bothered to read this help so many.
This is the best photographed necropsy I have seen. I think it's outstanding.
Could you please turn this into an article and put it in the learning center section. It's a first class piece of work imo.
Regarding the heart. When we process a chicken here naturally we get to see the internal organs. While the heart is carrying more fat than I see on the chickens here, to me that quantity of fat isn't life threatening. However, I'm not a vet and I wonder if it would be possible to get the pictures to a good avian vet and find out what they think of the amount of fat.
Regarding the worms. This is quite interesting. My vet doesn't speak English and my Catalan isn't up to technical or medical vocabulary. The first time I asked my vet to do a fecal float, I had taken her a normal poop sample. She looked very unhappy about the sample and tried to explain why. It took me a while to understand she wanted two samples, one of cecal poop and one of normal, so it would seem here at least that vets are aware that you need both to do a thorough check.
I hope you can find your ring.
Finally just a thank you. It's such a good write up.

Gracious day, @Shadrach, thank you very much. I do love these birds, as I do most anything living, but more importantly I have taken them under my wing, so to speak, to care properly for them. I do try my darnedest to do everything by the book, with a lot of common sense thrown in. It’s my job.

When processing my other birds I have not noticed what I would call a considerable amount of fat either. Hers has been the most I guess. That’s why I was wondering.

As far as finding an avian vet I’d probably come up short. Around here we have the good old farm vets, however they are very experienced in all aspects of farm life (and animals) for the most part, but being an avian specialist, probably not so much. It is definitely worth a try though. And who knows, I might be greatly surprised. Once it warms up just a tad, we’ve dipped into the 40’s/20’s, and that’s COLD to me, I will be spending a lot of time with the chickens and can get a double sampling of their poop. Getting both from the same bird will take some determination and watching and waiting. I can do it though. I’m weird like that.

As for the article, hmmmm! Maybe I can just reproduce this last post of mine into one. Do you think that’s the best way? It is sometimes difficult doing all this on my phone. As a matter of fact, this morning I had already typed everything up and was inserting the pictures when I accidentally hit Post Reply! Oh dear Lord. I scrambled to copy everything in a hurry so I could delete the post, but was unsuccessful at copying it. Anyway, I started all over again. That was a bit heartbreaking.

Thank you again for your kind words.

 

[Kiki]

Yes, I would send them off. Getting ill as in how? Other than Butter, I euthanized one because of terrible sounding breathing. She was eaten alive with tumors in her liver. And another one of my original gals that died on her own. She was full of little cancerous tumors all inside. Both of these were in April of this year. And then poor Butter, who drew the fat Russian Roulette card. What do I need to look for? All of them appear to be healthy: appearance, poops, eating Purina Flock Raiser, minimal treats, roosting, bug free, etc.

I would keep an eye out for if one starts to go downhill like Butter did this week.

 

[Kiki]

Gracious day, @Shadrach, thank you very much. I do love these birds, as I do most anything living, but more importantly I have taken them under my wing, so to speak, to care properly for them. I do try my darnedest to do everything by the book, with a lot of common sense thrown in. It’s my job.

When processing my other birds I have not noticed what I would call a considerable amount of fat either. Hers has been the most I guess. That’s why I was wondering.

As far as finding an avian vet I’d probably come up short. Around here we have the good old farm vets, however they are very experienced in all aspects of farm life (and animals) for the most part, but being an avian specialist, probably not so much. It is definitely worth a try though. And who knows, I might be greatly surprised. Once it warms up just a tad, we’ve dipped into the 40’s/20’s, and that’s COLD to me, I will be spending a lot of time with the chickens and can get a double sampling of their poop. Getting both from the same bird will take some determination and watching and waiting. I can do it though. I’m weird like that.

As for the article, hmmmm! Maybe I can just reproduce this last post of mine into one. Do you think that’s the best way? It is sometimes difficult doing all this on my phone. As a matter of fact, this morning I had already typed everything up and was inserting the pictures when I accidentally hit Post Reply! Oh dear Lord. I scrambled to copy everything in a hurry so I could delete the post, but was unsuccessful at copying it. Anyway, I started all over again. That was a bit heartbreaking.

Thank you again for your kind words.

If you go and actually create an article and publish it I will copy and move everything over to the article for you from my computer.