Post Crop Surgery Questions

[CPBlaire]

Can I glue the crop and suture the skin?

 

[EggWalrus]

Do I also leave the bottom open on the crop stitching? Also, how do you stitch it so that you can remove the stitching afterward? Unfortunately, I don't have any absorbable sutures.[/QUOTE]
How long has it been since the first surgery? The reason I ask is the crop may be granulating/closing on its own (but unlikely since it gets pressurized every time the bird eats). As for removing the crop sutures, you really need absorbable ones or you would have to go back in just to remove them. That's a lot of stress on a bird that is already stressed from the first surgery, and from the one you're about to perform to close the crop. I would just remove a few stitches and look in to see if the crop is leaking into the body cavity, if it is, flush it out and leave the stitches out till you can find absorbable sutures day after thanksgiving. Do you think the girl can make it that long?
But hopefully the crop isn't leaking so you can just sew up the skin.
I'll be praying for her!

 

[Mylied]

I did crop surgery on my silkie. You close up the crop all the way. You don't want it to drain. I used dissolvable thread but if others say glue will work, try that.

How distended was her crop when it was impacted?

 

[EggWalrus]

Can I glue the crop and suture the skin?

Yes, it is possible. But sutures would be stronger. Remember, a bird will over eat in a heartbeat. And any amount of food will put pressure in the crop and on the incision. I haven't ever used glue so I'm not familiar with its strength qualities. Someone that is more experienced with gluing will have to chime in. It would really suck to open her up again, glue it, close up the skin, then in a day or two, it rupture and have to put her thru it all over again. @casportpony is a Sr Expert and may have an answer.

 

[EggWalrus]

Do I also leave the bottom open on the crop stitching? Also, how do you stitch it so that you can remove the stitching afterward? Unfortunately, I don't have any absorbable sutures.

Make sure to close the crop incision completely. Think of it like a water hose going from the the beak to the vent. Any hole or opening is going to leak into the bird. And that's not good. once food goes in thru the mouth, the whole digestive system is pressurized. The crop, then the gizzard, then the guts /intestines and all the way to the poop shute. It's meant to be a closed system.

 

[staceyj]

Happy Thanksgiving and good morning friends.
@CPBlaire,
How is your bird this morning? I have a question for you: Is Bonnie’s comb always floppy? Could you post a new picture of her face and comb when you wake up today? (Time difference)

I’m asking because I have one who had a previous comb injury and when it healed it was to the side.

But if the answer is no, it’s likely because she’s quite dehydrated.

The night owls and west coasters have given you excellent advice and @EggWalrus brought up a vital suggestion which is a must, of leaving the bottom of the *outer incision open to drain.
Yes. Yes. And more yes to this! Thank you @EggWalrus

This is the perfect example of the collaborative spirit of BYC.

You did an awesome job on closing your incision. So much so, that I vote for making a new one and just let that one heal.

Don’t be shy about trimming away or even plucking feathers (in the direction of growth, just like an eyebrow hair) to achieve room to work and make a clean, straight cut.

How many days would it take to obtain more suture material? Because if it’s “tomorrow”, that’s oka but if it’s “several” ...you don’t have time.

My opinion is that getting the contamination of the interior drainage controlled is the higher priority.

If you could get it by tomorrow then I’d consider keeping her in total darkness today, withhold all food and just give Electrolytes by scant drops to the beak to humanely address her thirst.

It’s possible that little to none of what she’s been taking in is even reaching her system because it’s escaping before it can get there.

Subcutaneous fluids are a thought, but I’ve only administered sterile saline from an IV bag (obtained from my vet) into any of my animals over the years. I’ve no experience with “homemade” and therefore cannot guide you on this.

If you choose to open her today, or tomorrow at the latest you can correct her electrolytes and dehydration after the repair.

 

[staceyj]

This is my favorite crop surgery video of all time.
I especially like the approach that she uses, straight on.

I apologize if this one has already been posted here.

I would definitely sew Bonnie’s crop shut by any means possible.

Even if you used button thread (thicker and stronger than regular sewing thread) I think it would eventually degrade and be absorbed by the body.

*I would not use a nylon thread or fishing line on the inside.

 

[rebrascora]

You have received some excellent advice.
I can only advise you from my own experience which was surprisingly successful.
I was very sceptical about using super glue but I would strongly recommend it to close the crop. The crop lining tissue is quite white which helps to locate the lips of the crop incision, blot them dry and stick them together. I was so sceptical about how effective the glue would be at keeping the contents in that I did not close the outer incision in the skin because I was pretty certain that there would be some leakage. I just packed the wound with antiseptic cream and kept her caged in clean conditions for a couple of weeks. The important thing for the super glue to be effective might be the size and location of the incision. I kept my incision small (about half an inch) and high up in the crop.....above the water line so to speak. That made it more fiddly to extract the impacted material but much less likely to leak. If your incision is towards the bottom of the crop then the superglue may not be so successful but I would probably still give it a try. You will know if it is not holding because there will be drainage out of the outer incision.
I made the mistake of doing the surgery with the pullet on her side and she refluxed and aspirated during surgery, so I would strongly recommend keeping her upright to prevent this. I was sure my girl would die from pneumonia and I didn't have access to antibiotics either so I just left her to it and didn't even dress her wound over the next 3 days because her breathing was so bad I didn't want to stress her. She recovered miraculously on the 3rd day but she was running around within 2 minutes of me finishing th3 surgery and eating scrambled egg within 20 mins. Personally I would give her mushy food like scrambled egg rather than direct fluids as they are less likely to leak out of the incision and will still provide her with some water that her body needs.
My girl Vippy had been impacted for 10 days (that I knew about) before I resorted to surgery and she had lost an awful lot of weight, but despite her surgery and aspirating crop contents she was back up to weight and laid me an egg exactly 2 weeks later (on my birthday as it happened..... best birthday present I ever got!)

So in your position I would remove the sutures, flush the subcutaneous fluid out thoroughly with warm sterile saline and also flush the crop with warm water. If you are holding her upright to do this hopefully some of the water will find it's way down into her dighestive tract which will help with her dehydration. Then find the lips of the crop incision.... as I said they should be white although after 2 days it may not be so obvious. Blot them with gauze and apply a little glue and nip together..... it is fiddly I know but if I can do it, so can you!..... just be persistent and you will get there. Then leave the outer incision fully open, would be my advice and pack with triple antibiotic ointment. Chickens heal from some really incredible wounds so, don't be too worried about it. If it is huge then maybe just stitch or glue the top half of the outer incision.

I will try and find photos of Vippy with her surgical wound.

I would like to congratulate you on doing the surgery. I know how scary it is when you have scalpel in hand (I didn't even have one of those and used a craft knife!). Chickens are incredibly resilient and in lots of respects doing this surgery at home may be less risky than having a vet do it because they have to use anaesthetic and that can be more dangerous than the surgery itself. Hopefully you will be able to rectify the problem and she will come through it with flying colours like my Vippy did.... and she didn't hold it against me that I put her through that.

Out of curiosity, what did you get out of her? Was it the usually soggy mass of tangled vegetation?

 

[staceyj]

You have received some excellent advice.
I can only advise you from my own experience which was surprisingly successful.
I was very sceptical about using super glue but I would strongly recommend it to close the crop. The crop lining tissue is quite white which helps to locate the lips of the crop incision, blot them dry and stick them together. I was so sceptical about how effective the glue would be at keeping the contents in that I did not close the outer incision in the skin because I was pretty certain that there would be some leakage. I just packed the wound with antiseptic cream and kept her caged in clean conditions for a couple of weeks. The important thing for the super glue to be effective might be the size and location of the incision. I kept my incision small (about half an inch) and high up in the crop.....above the water line so to speak. That made it more fiddly to extract the impacted material but much less likely to leak. If your incision is towards the bottom of the crop then the superglue may not be so successful but I would probably still give it a try. You will know if it is not holding because there will be drainage out of the outer incision.
I made the mistake of doing the surgery with the pullet on her side and she refluxed and aspirated during surgery, so I would strongly recommend keeping her upright to prevent this. I was sure my girl would die from pneumonia and I didn't have access to antibiotics either so I just left her to it and didn't even dress her wound over the next 3 days because her breathing was so bad I didn't want to stress her. She recovered miraculously on the 3rd day but she was running around within 2 minutes of me finishing th3 surgery and eating scrambled egg within 20 mins. Personally I would give her mushy food like scrambled egg rather than direct fluids as they are less likely to leak out of the incision and will still provide her with some water that her body needs.
My girl Vippy had been impacted for 10 days (that I knew about) before I resorted to surgery and she had lost an awful lot of weight, but despite her surgery and aspirating crop contents she was back up to weight and laid me an egg exactly 2 weeks later (on my birthday as it happened..... best birthday present I ever got!)

So in your position I would remove the sutures, flush the subcutaneous fluid out thoroughly with warm sterile saline and also flush the crop with warm water. If you are holding her upright to do this hopefully some of the water will find it's way down into her dighestive tract which will help with her dehydration. Then find the lips of the crop incision.... as I said they should be white although after 2 days it may not be so obvious. Blot them with gauze and apply a little glue and nip together..... it is fiddly I know but if I can do it, so can you!..... just be persistent and you will get there. Then leave the outer incision fully open, would be my advice and pack with triple antibiotic ointment. Chickens heal from some really incredible wounds so, don't be too worried about it. If it is huge then maybe just stitch or glue the top half of the outer incision.

I will try and find photos of Vippy with her surgical wound.

I would like to congratulate you on doing the surgery. I know how scary it is when you have scalpel in hand (I didn't even have one of those and used a craft knife!). Chickens are incredibly resilient and in lots of respects doing this surgery at home may be less risky than having a vet do it because they have to use anaesthetic and that can be more dangerous than the surgery itself. Hopefully you will be able to rectify the problem and she will come through it with flying colours like my Vippy did.... and she didn't hold it against me that I put her through that.

Out of curiosity, what did you get out of her? Was it the usually soggy mass of tangled vegetation?

ALL OF THIS.

 

[EggWalrus]

Happy Thanksgiving and good morning friends.
@CPBlaire,
How is your bird this morning? I have a question for you: Is Bonnie’s comb always floppy? Could you post a new picture of her face and comb when you wake up today? (Time difference)

I’m asking because I have one who had a previous comb injury and when it healed it was to the side.

But if the answer is no, it’s likely because she’s quite dehydrated.

The night owls and west coasters have given you excellent advice and @EggWalrus brought up a vital suggestion which is a must, of leaving the bottom of the *outer incision open to drain.
Yes. Yes. And more yes to this! Thank you @EggWalrus

This is the perfect example of the collaborative spirit of BYC.

You did an awesome job on closing your incision. So much so, that I vote for making a new one and just let that one heal.

Don’t be shy about trimming away or even plucking feathers (in the direction of growth, just like an eyebrow hair) to achieve room to work and make a clean, straight cut.

How many days would it take to obtain more suture material? Because if it’s “tomorrow”, that’s oka but if it’s “several” ...you don’t have time.

My opinion is that getting the contamination of the interior drainage controlled is the higher priority.

If you could get it by tomorrow then I’d consider keeping her in total darkness today, withhold all food and just give Electrolytes by scant drops to the beak to humanely address her thirst.

It’s possible that little to none of what she’s been taking in is even reaching her system because it’s escaping before it can get there.

Subcutaneous fluids are a thought, but I’ve only administered sterile saline from an IV bag (obtained from my vet) into any of my animals over the years. I’ve no experience with “homemade” and therefore cannot guide you on this.

If you choose to open her today, or tomorrow at the latest you can correct her electrolytes and dehydration after the repair.

Thank you!