Potential Breed Creation

[RaineyTN]

Good post NatJ

 

[Blw18]

@NatJ you’ve given me some invaluable information!! That makes much more sense about the white and black coloring. If my focus wasn’t on free-ranging, I’d keep the off-white because it looks really good and plucking would be a lot easier, but I have a high predator load and white birds are 9 times out of 10 the first ones to be taken. If I can get size up, color won’t matter as much. I love black too because they seem to look cleaner all the time but black birds simply get too hot here when out in the sun. I’ve got a Turken-Langshan/Jubilee Orpington cockrell that I’d like to add the color from. He’s kind of a mahogany-red-black color with the jubilee pattern. Much darker than his mom but beautiful.

One way to reduce the feathering, increase the meat, and maintain the pea comb: add hatchery-quality Dark Cornish. Not Cornish Cross that grow so fast, not the show-quality Cornish that are wider than they are tall. The Dark Cornish I've had were from McMurray Hatchery and Ideal Poultry. They had pea combs, enough feathers for warmth but not a lot of extra fluff, clean legs, feather patterns that I liked, were fairly good layers-- basically a dual-purpose bird that was a little more compact than most and has the pea comb.

Those Liege chicks look nice! And I see they have many of the same qualities that I found in Dark Cornish (pea comb, close feathering, compact body, patterned feathers. Looks like they feathered out fast, too.) So I can see why you've decided to cross them in to your mix!

I had considered the dark Cornish but 50 cent Cornish rocks at the feed store were too much to resist. They are more experimental though than anything...I’m not looking for the massive size and fast growth rate of the pure CX but I’m mainly interested in what their grandchicks or great-grandchicks turn out like when combined with the projects and liege for a few generations. And honestly, the liege are solid blocks of muscle themselves so I may just use them. They have a lot of the “look” that I want with the dark eyes and beetle brow. However, I could probably save myself a lot of time if I found some dark Cornish and I probably will next spring. As for the slow feathering, I noticed something yesterday that kind of changed my mind. The very slow feathering chicks were noticeably bigger than their faster feathering siblings. This is something I noticed with my turkens vs other breeds. I assume that the protein consumed goes into bone and muscle instead of feathers for the first few months. My number one problem now is getting rid of feathered legs and maintaining good egg production as body size increases. I want to end up with a really tall, muscled up breed that’s really versatile as far as uses go. Today’s dual purpose breeds are almost entirely useless as far as genuine meat qualities. And those that are really meaty aren’t good layers. I’m not expecting my breed lay as good as say...a leghorn or production red, but pretty decent nevertheless. My project hens are great layers of huge eggs right now but I’ll be adding poorer laying breeds into the fray later this fall. I have Brahma/brown leghorn crosses but they’ve taken after their mom in body size for the most part and that’ll drag my line back. I’m very happy with the temperament, hardiness, and behavioral aspects of the project birds right now. My hens are some of the most ferocious mothers I’ve ever seen!! The other day, a red-shouldered hawk tried to grab a chick from one of the hens and she intercepted him midair and beat the crap out of him until he took off. Granted, she was 8-9 pounds of angry mama but I was impressed. I assume they inherited that from my turken line that were notoriously good hens. The fayoumi descendants are even better but I’ll have to get their size up before I introduce them to the main line. The finished product need to be pea combed, clean legged (preferably yellow colored), and I’m trying to get that jubilee color in for aesthetic qualities. How will I go about cleaning up the legs and keeping the jubilee color in the line for several generations? I know this will probably take me years but I’m determined to make it work!!

 

[NatJ]

I’ve got a Turken-Langshan/Jubilee Orpington cockrell that I’d like to add the color from. He’s kind of a mahogany-red-black color with the jubilee pattern. Much darker than his mom but beautiful.

Do you have a picture? Because there are several different "Jubilee" patterns, in various different breeds.

And honestly, the liege are solid blocks of muscle themselves so I may just use them. They have a lot of the “look” that I want with the dark eyes and beetle brow.

They do appear to have a lot of the qualities you want. And "solid blocks of muscle" sounds like "good for meat" to me!

As for the slow feathering, I noticed something yesterday that kind of changed my mind. The very slow feathering chicks were noticeably bigger than their faster feathering siblings. This is something I noticed with my turkens vs other breeds. I assume that the protein consumed goes into bone and muscle instead of feathers for the first few months.

That is very interesting! I can see how that would be a good thing for a meat bird.

My number one problem now is getting rid of feathered legs and maintaining good egg production as body size increases. I want to end up with a really tall, muscled up breed that’s really versatile as far as uses go. Today’s dual purpose breeds are almost entirely useless as far as genuine meat qualities. And those that are really meaty aren’t good layers.

Some of those same dual purpose breeds might be useful for the clean legs and better laying, though.

I haven't had a chance, but I've been wanting to cross a Dark Cornish hen to a Red Sexlink rooster, and then interbreed the offspring. I think I would get good laying, a bunch of colors of chicks, early maturity, and a reasonable amount of meat (plus pea comb and clean legs)--but that's all speculation at present!

The finished product need to be pea combed, clean legged (preferably yellow colored), and I’m trying to get that jubilee color in for aesthetic qualities. How will I go about cleaning up the legs and keeping the jubilee color in the line for several generations?

Clean legs: don't add any more feathered legs, and select in the direction of cleaner legs.

Jubilee coloring: post a pic or link to what "Jubilee" you want to make, and I might be able to help figure out the genetics and what you need to add.

 

[Blw18]

Do you have a picture? Because there are several different "Jubilee" patterns, in various different breeds.

This is the young rooster. He’s 2.5 months old at the moment. He doesn’t have a lot of the white speckling at the moment but the older he gets the more it comes in. The hen below him is his mom. She’s pure jubilee Orpington. The dad is pictured in my original post...he’s half black langshan and half cuckoo turken. He throws chicks of all different colors but it normally skews in the direction of the hen’s colors more than half the time. All chicks of his have a really pretty metallic green in the darker feathers though like his sire did.

This pairing has thrown black, jubilee, cuckoo, mottled, and a pullet that’s cuckoo mottled. My intent in breeding anything is a primary focus on functionality, health, and behavior but good looks would be a nice touch. This color pattern, flashy as it is, also blends really well into the undergrowth and woods where I live so it will hopefully serve as a kind of camouflage to aerial predators and ground threats as well. I know it’s not fool proof but if it can reduce losses to predators then I want to add it. I know it sounds harsh but I keep everything free-ranging from day 1 with their mothers and by 2 months old, only the healthiest, most robust juveniles are left. I let them continue on free-range to weed out any weaknesses until maturity or even a little after so I can pick my breeders based on qualities I’m looking for and not run the risk of introducing an individual into the bloodline that’s not physically or behaviorally sound. I used to have heavy losses but as the line has progressed, losses now reduce dramatically with every generation. This also gives me a chance to see what colors, body types, genetics, etc work vs which ones don’t. The jubilee patterned chicks, because they’re mostly brown with tan and black markings are almost never taken by predators whereas the whites mainly, but blacks and others will get predated upon. I suppose it’s because when a hawk flies in and everybody runs for cover, the jubilees are the least likely to be seen hiding.

 

[NatJ]

That kind of jubilee is mottled (recessive gene) on a base of black laced red (red, brown, gold--whatever name you like to call it.)

Crossing to other Jubilees of course works.

If you crossed him to a Dark Cornish (black double-lacing on red), you would get chicks with some kind of lacing, and no visible mottling. Crossing them back to the Jubilee would produce about 50% mottled chicks. (Similar for just about anything else you cross him with--that was just an example.)

If you want to see mottling on other base patterns/colors, you can look for pictures of Speckled Sussex, Spangled Russian Orloff, Millie Fleur, Ancona, Houdan. I'm guessing that even on black, the mottling will provide reasonably good camouflage.

It looks like the Dominant White is a bigger problem than the Extended Black, so you might breed away from it first.

I don't know how carefully you control which male mates with which female, but if at least one bird in each pairing has no Dominant White, you should see a lot less white in the next round of chicks. If you let them all run together, it would probably be easier to select enough males without Dominant White, rather than trying to find enough females that lack it.

To identify birds without Dominant White, look for black in the plumage. Not just a few feathers, but black lacing or black tail or black all over or something like that. (For this purpose, blue is just as good as black.)

For these project-males you posted pictures of, the first and second have Dominant White, the last two in a photo together do not:

Project roo 5 months old:View attachment 2338480
Project roos 4 months old:
View attachment 2338481View attachment 2338478

The Jubilee Orpington and her son do not have Dominant White--you can tell because they have a good amount of black in their tails, and a fair bit in other places as well.

 

[Blw18]

If you crossed him to a Dark Cornish (black double-lacing on red), you would get chicks with some kind of lacing, and no visible mottling. Crossing them back to the Jubilee would produce about 50% mottled chicks. (Similar for just about anything else you cross him with--that was just an example.)

That helps a lot!! Thank you for helping me out on this so much! I keep track of both parents of each chick I breed and I have family records of each parent going back to the beginning. If I don’t know the parentage of a chicken I won’t breed it. I’m very careful about knowing what’s what so regulating genes in the bloodline should be pretty easy.

 

[RoostersAreAwesome]

That kind of jubilee is mottled (recessive gene) on a base of black laced red (red, brown, gold--whatever name you like to call it.)

Crossing to other Jubilees of course works.

If you crossed him to a Dark Cornish (black double-lacing on red), you would get chicks with some kind of lacing, and no visible mottling. Crossing them back to the Jubilee would produce about 50% mottled chicks. (Similar for just about anything else you cross him with--that was just an example.)

If you want to see mottling on other base patterns/colors, you can look for pictures of Speckled Sussex, Spangled Russian Orloff, Millie Fleur, Ancona, Houdan. I'm guessing that even on black, the mottling will provide reasonably good camouflage.

It looks like the Dominant White is a bigger problem than the Extended Black, so you might breed away from it first.

I don't know how carefully you control which male mates with which female, but if at least one bird in each pairing has no Dominant White, you should see a lot less white in the next round of chicks. If you let them all run together, it would probably be easier to select enough males without Dominant White, rather than trying to find enough females that lack it.

To identify birds without Dominant White, look for black in the plumage. Not just a few feathers, but black lacing or black tail or black all over or something like that. (For this purpose, blue is just as good as black.)

For these project-males you posted pictures of, the first and second have Dominant White, the last two in a photo together do not:


The Jubilee Orpington and her son do not have Dominant White--you can tell because they have a good amount of black in their tails, and a fair bit in other places as well.

Do you mean black tailed red?

 

[NatJ]

Do you mean black tailed red?

Oops, yes, I should have double-checked that. Jubilee Orpington is mottling on black tailed red, and Tolbunt Polish are the ones with mottling on black laced gold.

Thanks for catching me there!

 

[NatJ]

I keep track of both parents of each chick I breed and I have family records of each parent going back to the beginning. If I don’t know the parentage of a chicken I won’t breed it. I’m very careful about knowing what’s what so regulating genes in the bloodline should be pretty easy.

Oh, that's really nice! It makes it much easier to work with the colors! (And the other traits as well, of course.)

 

[Blw18]

Oh, that's really nice! It makes it much easier to work with the colors! (And the other traits as well, of course.)

I have a notebook of all the past and present breeders on the farm and their progeny. Each has a name (if they’re more of a pet) or an ID (F1 BL/CT #1, F1 BL/CT #2, etc.). Underneath each name is a list of known traits, traits they’ve passed on to their offspring, behavior notes, ancestry, health history, and several other things. It makes it so much easier to keep track of everything about the current flock but also help me predict what a certain pairing will produce in their offspring.