Proof Coop Insulation Does Nothing.

[kiwiegg]

No-one is doubting the technology - it's very useful. But I guess what eveyone is trying to say is insulate the entire coop and then look at the data. You have to admit the first experiment did not really address the claim - right? If you are studying the effect of inslulation the first experiment was like studying the inslulation properties of a partially made igloo.

 

[wildeflowers]

I don't think people are being "negative". Instead, I see people pointing out the flaw in your methods of extrapolation.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are saying that the thermal imager shows that there is no difference in the heat loss on the wall itself from a panel that is not insulated to a panel that is insulated.

But what we are trying to say to you is that method is empirically flawed. A better method to measure the difference between insulated and non-insulated would be to take a thermal image of the whole wall uninsulated, then insulate the whole coop, and take a thermal image, on a day with the same temp and humidity level and they should be cold days. Only then will you be able to truly determine if insulation is helpful or not.

You see, what I think you are failing to acknowledge is that while the thermal imager is indeed showing no difference in heat loss between the insulated panel vs the non-insulated panel, the whole coop is venting and cooling to equilibrium since there is nothing preventing the heat loss throughout the rest of the coop (ie full coop insulation). Therefore, of course, the thermal imager shows no difference.

I, too, would love to see a more controlled experiment with your imager.

 

[4 the Birds]

Hmmmm.. We have fully insulated dog houses (floor, roof, walls all have 1" rigid insulation) and one without insulation. All have doorways that are open year round to outdoor tempatures. The insulated housing is much better at keeping inside temps cooler in the Summer and warmer in the Winter (I have actually crawled halfway in to feel the difference). A very drafty coop would not gain alot of benefits from insulation but it certainly is not in the "does nothing" category. Whether or not insulation is needed in a coop can be argued.

 

[Chickens-246]

What the styrofoam spot shows is an exact side by side comparison of with and without insulation in a real time situation, which is conclusive on how well it's working. An entire wall or coop wouldn't show a side by side and has no additional relevance on the insulation functionality.

Thus far, I have seen no one "prove" that insulation in coops work, only hearsay and granddad did it for some reason. But yet I'm required to do experiments to be "believable". The side by side shows what's happening, plain and simple. To just put a thermometer in the coop and say, "hey it works, it's warmer" is not conclusive, without identical before and after weather conditions and chicken count, which advocates have failed to provide.

I would say with certainly, in the act of installing insulation, the air leaks in the coop were sealed or reduced during the process, making it less drafty, thus making it warmer. However it was proclaim by granddad insulation in coops work, when it should have been proclaimed an air tight coop works.

There is allot of air gaps in normal construction. Plus any metals going from outside to inside rapidly transfer temperature, it's like having a hole in the building. Like protruding nails (lots in roofing) or lumber brackets. The act of insulating would have covered all these, masking the offenders of temperature intrusion.

I've showed you with the thermal imager that insulation is not doing much, so the conclusion is sealing air leaks and protruding metals are the real offenders. One could seal (inside/outside) and sheetrock the inside and have similar effects as batt insulated. Sealed air gaps is an insulator in itself (and free). Also, heating a vented coop via thermal mass 'all night' is a myth.

One has to keep in mind a coop always has an "open window".

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Nope, because insulation only helps if the indoors starts off warmer (either because of initial conditions, or because you have a heat source in there). If you let all the heat that insulation *could've* captured leak out the 95% of the structure that is uninsulated, then obviously it makes no difference. Likewise if for any other reason there is no inherent tendency for the inside to be warmer than the outside, a piece o' styrofoam isn't going to make any difference.

I know what you happen to own is a heat gun not a thermometer, but honestly the test of whether a structure is warmer indoors when insulated is a THERMOMETER (indoors, compared to what the indoor temp is without insulation).... not heat loss across the walls. I expect that someone with a very thorough engineering background could probably USE heat loss across walls (i.e. outdoor wall temp) to estimate indoor temperature if you gave them a heap of information about internal heat source, building structural details, etc.... but why would you want a difficult estimate like that when you can direclty measure indoor temp with a thermometer??

An entire wall or coop wouldn't show a side by side and has no additional relevance on the insulation functionality.

For a "side by side" you need to compare either before-and-after insulating, or compare to a near-identical structure in near-identical site that has no insulation. Which has been done many, many times over the years.

I repeat: insulation only works if the cows (heat) have not already left the pasture (bldg) by other means.

I wonder if the problem here is that you are used to houses, which are heated to like 70 F ish (and continually so, by means of furnace etc) and thus have a VERY LARGE internal heat source?

Maybe that is it.

Because certainly if you put a (sufficiently thick, sufficiently large) piece of insulation against a HOUSE wall, you can see its effect on outdoor wall temperatures.

But that is only the case because the temperature gradient is so large and the heat source inside the house so active.

Chicken coops operate on usually-*small* temperature gradients which, unless you're running a heatlamp or other electrical appliance, are not driven by strong ongoing generation of heat. Rather, the temperature difference between in and out depends largely on things like capture of daytime heat and summertime latent-heat-of-the-ground, slowly released at night and as the weather cools.

Thus far, I have seen no one "prove" that insulation in coops work, only hearsay

What would you consider proof?

THe thing is, most of us HAVE seen proof, we have been there and done it and seen the actual results, but it is based on experience. Data. Not theory.

yet I'm required to do experiments to be "believable".

No, you are not.

It's just that what you *have* done does not in any way whatsoever prove what you say it does.

You are speaking to several college professors and research scientists here, as well as some people in the construction industry.

I think you need to review some physics and engineering if you are going to argue on the basis of theory (which you ARE -- you are extrapolating from this little-piece-o-insulation surface-temp piece of information, to a WILDLY larger and different issue).

What we are doing is simply saying that we have SEEN (in many cases, lived through) actual valid "experiments", i.e. do it both ways under the same conditions and see if indoor temperature is different -- and pointing out that the REASON your prediction does not agree with our experience is that your logic is flawed.


Pat​

 

[Chickens-246]

Well, like normal Pat ,you don't seem to be reading or comprehending my posts.

 

[patandchickens]

Well, I sure do comprehend that you think your data are appropriate to test your hypothesis about whether insulation can affect coop temp in a ventilated coop.

I comprehend that you think heat guns are pretty nifty.

Also I comprehend that you have either not had a lot of physics or engineering background, or if you have, that sexy new full-color thermal-imaging gun has driven most of it from your mind; and that experimental design is not a great interest of yours.

I'm really not writing these posts for your eddification, you know. I had enough undergrads over the years who knew they knew everything, and didn't NEED to think about logic or experimental design because if something seemed clear in their heads then it must be true, to have nooooo illusions about where this discussion would go. That's fine, it's your life, do whatcha want.

The reason I am bothering with these posts is that other people read these threads. I would not want bystanders to walk away with the impression that you have proven anything of relevance to backyard coops, regarding what insulation can or cannot do.

Because although insulation is seldom life-or-death *necessary*, it often does yield very real benefits to chicken health and comfort, and also, if you are using any type of electrical heating, will save you money.

Bystanders to the thread are invited to do their own experiments and reach their own conclusions. Maybe even learn a bit of physics too

(A reminder to those interested in the subject and who recognize that the directly-relevant thing is to measure indoor coop temperature not outdoor wall temperature: the benefit from insulation in coops tends to be greatest in the coldest part of the winter, which we have not yet reached, so for those of you with a well-ventilated coop that is running about the same temperature indoors as out right now, that is quite fine and normal).


Pat

 

[Hound]

Another way to think of it is a house with a power outage in the winter. Often after a few hours it will feel colder indoors than it does outside. When the heating comes back on it's nice and toasty inside, but still as a cold as a witch's tit outside. If you don't put your heating on, your house will keep the wind out and that's it. If you have no insulation you'll be heating the yard.

 

[Ridgerunner]

To have a valid experiment to get valid conclusions, you need to clearly define your project. Exactly what are you trying to prove? I assume in this case you want to prove that, if you have adequate ventilation, insulation doesn't do anything. I can read some assumptions in what you are saying, but I can be wrong in my assumptions.

How do you define and measure adequate ventilation? What are your parameters? How will you know you have adequate ventilation? Is it that chickens don't get frostbite? Is it that the humidity is at a certain level? In reality, there are huge differences in the amount of ventilation in our coops. That is a huge variable in this experiment, but for the expetiment to have value, this needs to be addressed. Adequate ventilation is a very basic part of your problem statement.

Talk about, "doesn't do anything" a bit. What do you mean by this? To have a valid conclusion, you have to measure the right thing. Does this mean inside temperatures of the walls? Does it mean air temperatures? Where in the coop are you taking air temperatures, if that is what you are after? Maybe where the chickens are roosting? Does humidity factor in? Hot air does rise and it holds more moisture. It may not take much temperature difference to remove enough moisture to make a significant difference to the chickens and avoid frostbite.

Under what conditions does insulation not do anything? Are you talking about a relatively calm day with steady temperatures or are you addressing a situation where the temperatures are steadily dropping? Is the wind calm or is it blowing?

To have a valid conclusion, you can only have one major variable, in this case insulation. Startting temperatures inside and out have to be the same. Ending temperatures have to be the same. Rate of temperature change should be the same. Wind speed and direction should be the same. Ventilation openings should be the same. Heat sink or thermal mass conditions should be the same.

Then after you have done this for one coop design and construction, you have to change a basic parameter, maybe coop height, and do it again. The change the wall material, maybe wood versus metal. Vary the amount of insulation. Vary the amount of ventilation. Vary the temperature drop. If the coop is on the ground, then try it on an elevated coop. Try it with a heat source then without a heat source, other than the chickens I mean. Many other possible variables. If insulation makes a difference in any of these changed conditions, then your conclusion is invalid. If you say that under certain conditions insulation does not do anything, then describe what those conditions are and in waht way insulation doesn;t do anythong, you may be making a valid statement. But all i t takes is to show one time where you are incorrect and you general statement is invalid.

You can measure the temperature of the walls interior and exterior when there is a temperature differential inside and outside and see where you are experiencing heat loss. If you measure the air temperatures inside and out and have the areas with the different temperature losses, you can use the principles of thermodynamics and calculate the amount of heat loss through the walls. In conditions where the inside and outside temperatures are significantly different, you will find a big difference in heat transfer due to insulation. That is according to the laws of physics. I have not done the experiments so I cannot say with absolute certainly, but based on a basic understanding of the laws of physica and a few decades of experience I do think insulatoing in extemely hot or extremely cold temperatures can have real benefits.

 

[Mrs MIA]

Maybe Mythbusters can help with this...