Questions about BBR, Brown, Wheaten and Spangled

[nicalandia]

Partridge and Brown Red are two different patterns.

Partridge Brown Red

Not My Birds -


Chris

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote: In some of the photos the wing triangle is obvious, in others I cannot tell. Some of the really dark hens almost look mahogany (as in RIR), and hte mahogany is dark enoug that I/m not sure you could see the wing triangle from the photo.

But you are correct, birchen based (crow wing) birds such as brown reds do not have a wind triangle.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote: The brown Marvin referred to is the e^b allele, not the brown red variety. e^b birds are duckwing, not crow wing. e^b is also called partridge, and some earlier genetic references listed it as e^p. You don;t see that in more modern literature, but you do see it called partridge, pretty much as often as brown. In this case partridge would refer to the e^b allele, not the partridge pattern which also requires Pg (the pattern gene).

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote:

Partridge and Brown Red are two different patterns.

Partridge Brown Red

Not My Birds -


Chris

And just to confuse the issue, add in enough melanizers and an e^b hen can look black, although when right next to an E or E^R black there will usually be a hint of a brown tint.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote: Check out http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html#gen_mut_elocus for photos and descriptions of the differences between the phenotypes of the different e-alleles.

 

[Poultry Friend]

Wow! Thank you all so much everyone, however, I think my brain just exploded.

I think we are getting caught up in something I see in mouse genetics all the time.

One person from county A calls gene X = Peach
Person from Country B (in the south) calls this gene= Lemon
Person from Country B (in the north) calls this gene= Agouti

( ^Made all that up)

Anyhow, brown/red? What gene is this? Those hens looks a lot like mine. I also think my roos are, since I am pretty sure they do not have a duck-wing pattern.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Wow! Thank you all so much everyone, however, I think my brain just exploded.

I think we are getting caught up in something I see in mouse genetics all the time.

One person from county A calls gene X = Peach
Person from Country B (in the south) calls this gene= Lemon
Person from Country B (in the north) calls this gene= Agouti

( ^Made all that up)

Anyhow, brown/red? What gene is this? Those hens looks a lot like mine. I also think my roos are, since I am pretty sure they do not have a duck-wing pattern.

You are mixing VARIETY (colour/colour pattern, aka APPEARANCE) names with the names of GENES. The nomenclature for genes is pretty standard worldwide. The name for varieties can differ significantly.

Brown red is a variety and is birchen based plus gold: E^R/E^R s+/s+

E^R based birds are crow winged (no ground colour wing triangle).

 

[Poultry Friend]

You are mixing VARIETY (colour/colour pattern, aka APPEARANCE) names with the names of GENES. The nomenclature for genes is pretty standard worldwide. The name for varieties can differ significantly.

Brown red is a variety and is birchen based plus gold: E^R/E^R s+/s+

E^R based birds are crow winged (no ground colour wing triangle).

Yes, that is my point exactly. People keep using different names for phenotype and are not really using the correct names for geneotype, which is confusing me greatly! LOL

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote: Part of the problem is that variety names and gene names can be the same words. For example, "birchen" can be used to name a specific variety or to refer to a specific e-allele; only the context will tell you which is meant. However, I am not sure where you are seeing people use incorrect genotype names? Like it or not, there are multiple phenotype names in several instances: lavender/self blue, columbian/light for example.

 

[nicalandia]

Yes, that is my point exactly. People keep using different names for phenotype and are not really using the correct names for geneotype, which is confusing me greatly! LOL

well the correct name for the "e" allele ER is Birchen.... BUT.... there is a phenotype(looks) called Birchen too, which is ER(Birchen) on a Silver Background(dominant sex linked Silver S) and every other gene being wildtype(no restrictors or enhancers). while this same genotype(birds genetic make up) on a bird based on gold(recessive sex linked gold s+) is called Brown Red, but when someone says Brown Red, there is little confusion about it, the confusion comes when somebody says that a bird is based on Birchen, but looks at the bird and dont see a Birchen phenotype(Silver ER wildtype), its like when I say silver spangled hamburg are birchen based, people often confuse the term Birchen when its use to describe a genotype instead of a phenotype

the thing is that most people get confused when someone describes a bird is when that person is talking about a genotype(genetic make up) or if its talking about the birds phenotype(looks)


lets stay with the Birchen(ER) allele...

Phenotype(looks)

BIRCHEN: a bird is said to be birchen when has a black body and silver hackles(for hens)


Silver Blue: a bird is said to be Silver Blue when it has a blue body and silver hackles(for hens)



Brown Red: a bird is said to be Brown Red when it has a black body and gold hackles(for hens)



Lemon Blue: a bird is said to be Lemon blue when it has a blue body and lemon hackes(for hens)



Blue Coper: a bird is said to be Blue Copper when it has a Blue dody and gold/red hackles(for hens, like blue copper marans)




GENOTYPE(a birds genetic make up)

BIRCHEN: a bird is said to be Birchen when its "e" allele is ER

Crow Wing: Crowwing is a gestimate of a birds genetic make up, most Crow wing birds are based on ER(Birchen) BUT.... there are Extended black birds(E, most dominant "e" allele) that some how are not fully malanized(not entirely black ) this is caused by many genetic factors that causes an all black bird to lose those melanizers, and these birds can often look like Birchen and are confused with them, so both ER and E can have the Crow Wing look.....


but when other genes(diluters, inhibitors, enhancers) are at play, ER and E are very very hard to distinguis...

example below roo is E/eb(Extended black/eb brown) Ml/ml+(melanotic) S/s+(golden)



below hen is ER/eWh with recessive melanizers..