Rabbit raid?

[punk-a-doodle]

In laboratory settings at least, (talking about the more restricted pure research), the conditions pictured would not be allowed. I can't imagine ours approaching anything like that, and that includes mice which are allowed more contact with feces than rabbits. The reasons include not just humane care, but also disease and infection risks, as lab conditions do not want what are called "outside variables". While paying attention to your animal's feces is one way to gauge health, living in close quarters with a lot of feces build up can cause a host of health issues in many species. Rock doves are one animal I can see being a little more lax on feces build-up, considering how many choose to nest, but rabbits like to keep their latrine not under their noses despite practicing coprophagy.
Most rodents and lagomorphs are prone to respiratory issues, which are often worsened by things such as ammonia build up from urine, poor ventilation, etc. If you want to allow the waste to build up that high for whatever reason, I imagine by most standards, the rabbit still needs room to comfortably lie down and stretch out without being in their own waste, and ventilation must be no kidding good without having drafts. Having such close proximity to that amount of waste opens rabbits up to things like abscesses, sore hocks, skin rashes and urine scalding and other infections and irritations, not to mention the possible internal and eye related irritation and infection. Rabbits have thin skin with blood vessels very close to the surface in parts, which can make them more prone to these types of issues. To say that a rabbit would need this sort of build up for one to safely assess its health is not something that seems logically sound. It would not indicate a healthy rabbit, or even an accurate estimate of a fecal ratio for the day, unless one could date the feces. I would not personally buy from a breeder with cages that had the amount of feces build up and matting shown in the photos, especially if kept in cages that size (and I am personally fine with that size of caging for livestock rabbits...but not when only part of it provides a non damp/soiled area). Even if the breeder cleaned up their cages completely a half hour before I visited, I'd still have some samples to view going by my own rabbits.

 

[debilorrah]

Mary is right about poop. When our grandkids were born, neither of us were here for 2-3 days to clean up and OMG the piles were worse than Ms. Bell's supposed photos. I mean it was BAD. But you know what? Life happens, and I am not sure everyone knows this, but there is a cycle to rabbit poop and part of it they eat. Can you imagine if they DIDN'T eat it, what a mess there would be?

We happen to have a very, very small rabbitry here and use drop cages. Half their cages is wire and the other half is floored. The floored portion? Within 15 minutes it is covered in waste. Is this bad? NO! Rabbit poop is very clean, can't think of another word for it. It doesn't have to be composted before using in a garden. It's not "hot" like chicken and duck waste.

Also, because the cages are worn does not mean abuse. Rabbit pee is HIGHLY acidic and rots wire quite quickly. Some of the photos were over the top filth. Some were not, from my own experience with build up in just 2-3 days.

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

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Today.

 

[redhen]

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X2

 

[cassidy22]

That is really scary, and I live pretty darn close to her.

People who don't raise animals don't know a darn thing, and some nosy busy-body can make an anonymous call and have someone's animals taken away?

Sure, someone who knew nothing about chickens could call and have all mine removed, because they take dirt baths and poop on the ground! OH NO!

I feel terrible for that poor woman, and for all those rabbits who were taken away from a great owner and put in a barn stall? Because that's better for them?


Grrr....

 

[Fawkes]

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Actually they're usually really lenient- too lenient. As long as conditions are clean and there's food and water they usually don't do a thing.

 

[PhoenixFarm]

I just joined this group, and spent I don't know how long reading this whole thread. Yes, I have rabbits- just 4 right now-- but in the past over 100, rare breed as well as the common New Zealand California crosses and a couple Mini Rex.I have belonged, in the past, to both the ARBA and the ALBC, and the state farm bureau- right now- money is tight, so memberships are lapsed.
MS Bell had her first hearing today- plead Not Guilty to all charges. So, there will be another hearing, then a trial- if things go that far. For those of you saying she does not deserve to keep animals- bear in mind- the rabbits are now 'useless' as anything but pets , even if she could get them back (they have been 'sold') the breeding program is now extinct.- Most of you making comments have not followed this as closely as others have, If you had, you would know that a week after the raid, AC was back, and seized a rooster that was MISSING A TOENAIL--the rooster was 8 years old.
Now, this is a poultry forum- how many roosters that free range live to be 8? How many live that long without some sort of battle or life scar? How would you feel if someone heard your favorite hen sneeze, and called APHIS out because your flock is *infected* with AI? Your flock would be *depopulated* as well as others in the area, long before cultures and electron microscope exams could prove that your flock was clean.
Don't be judge and jury based on a few pictures and your emotions. The fact finding is just beginning, I am sure. And for those people who feel over 100 rabbits may be too many to handle-- there are people that have 300 hole rabbitries, and do just fine-- but they have not yet been targeted by people with senses of right and wrong that don't mesh with theirs. If you ever read up on how third world populations are instructed in raising rabbits or even poultry you would see that standards are not set up the same worldwide. This has to do with economics--and the economics within the US are very broad.
Now, there was a recent raid and seizure here in Ohio-- not only were the rabbits taken, but goats, horses and poultry. I don't see everyone getting all up in arms abut that one-- but it was done a bit more properly-- warrant in hand when the LEO knocked on the door. And the owner had a history..
Check your state and local laws, everyone-- Ohio lost it's '72 hour clean up' grace period, and I suspect the same is happening in other states. meanwhile, don't be judge and jury-- or someone may do the same to you.
And Mary, LOVE those fluffy cages you have, I bet they are super soft on the rabbit hocks!

Tery

 

[user104534]

I definitely would agree that the raid wasn't done in a very professional manner, although that doesn't mean she hasn't done anything wrong. I don't think there is anybody calling her a criminal here, just looks like she just needed to do some cleaning. I definitely wouldn't want my rabbit living near a mound of poop that big, and those cages were pretty small. My travel cage for vet appointments is bigger than those.

We'll just have to wait and see what the jury says.

 

[ilovehome]

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This is still the US, the land of the free, and if I want to raise my animals in their own poop, why can't I? If they are healthy, happy and display no symptoms of illness, why can't I raise them the way I want? I might think its the new green...

By the way, there are plenty of pet owners who keep their rabbits in terrible conditions. The ones I've seen on animal hoarders and animal cops are pet owners, not ones who raised for show or meat.

 

[punk-a-doodle]

This is still the US, the land of the free, and if I want to raise my animals in their own poop, why can't I? If they are healthy, happy and display no symptoms of illness, why can't I raise them the way I want? I might think its the new green...

You would have to vote/change the laws in your area and possibly on a federal level to not be affected by them while living within a society. Maybe someone can post to what those local and federal laws are in relation to breeding rabbits, as I only know what laws pertain to me, my animals, and certain branches and accredidations of lab animals. Or, you can of course lobby and/or make sure your group of choice is in power in your area, and then it is amazing what the law overlooks. Occasionally you can get by setting up a commune and stockpiling weapons...but sometimes that doesn't work out too well.

By the way, there are plenty of pet owners who keep their rabbits in terrible conditions. The ones I've seen on animal hoarders and animal cops are pet owners, not ones who raised for show or meat.

There sure are. Not sure why that would excuse poor conditions for a breeder/livestock operation?

I definitely would agree that the raid wasn't done in a very professional manner, although that doesn't mean she hasn't done anything wrong. I don't think there is anybody calling her a criminal here, just looks like she just needed to do some cleaning.

Very well put.​