Raising Chickens withOUT using DE?

[kayri]

Well, I don't know about the toxicity of DE to honeybees, but I know that Sevin is toxic to honeybees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesticide_toxicity_to_bees

In addition, I believe that Sevin is used as an insecticide to get rid of bees. Google "Sevin" and "bee toxicity".

I believe the way that DE works is that insects have to come in contact with it and it's sharp little edges kill it. Unless the bees are rolling around on your chickens (kind of a cute thought) I can't believe it would be an issue (unlike sevin).

Kay

 

[claud]

I don't use it. If your birds have access to good old-fashioned dusty dirt it can be quite effective(that's what all those little wild birdies use).

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
I don't personally like Sevin, which is why I dust with DE, but I am having a hard time envisioning how bees are going to contact the Sevin if it's used properly i.e. just dusted into the chickens' feathers and squirted into the crevices where mites can hide (also underneath the litter).

How is that going to affect the bees?


Pat

 

[miss_thenorth]

I am quoting MissPrissy on what she had said on a previous thread:

Chickens will eat the bees if they catch them but I don't think they will eat hundreds of bees. No worries there.

It is good you mentioned the neighbor and the bees. You will want to stay away from DE products with your chickens. Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth is used to help control insects that are not good for chickens - mice, lice, bugs and it will help to keep flies under control. It works naturally because it microscopically slices and dices the bugs and flies and larvea and they bleed out and die without the need of poisons to be used. It will also do this to bees. So if the bees come over and get the DE on their little feet and take it back to the hive any other bee that gets in it will also eventually bleed out and die. You could see the entire colony gone.

I am not trying to scare you. I am just giving you a friendly heads up since you voiced the concerns of the chickens eating the bees.

On a happy note, if you build your coop this summer you will staill have plenty of time through the fall to get chicks and get them feathered out before winter.


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[ivan3]

miss_the_north, I'm curious about the amount/concentration of DE that would be required to destroy a hive. The only thing I could find out (quick search) was that the commercial DE product, used on crops, has a <2hr. residual toxicity window for European Honey Bees. I defer to your expertise. I'd hate to be rubbing out our wild guys, but it hasn't seemed to impact them. Even though we use the DE mixed into bedding, dusting areas, we still have to remove European Hornet and Mud Dauber nests from inside both the turkey shed and chicken coop (don't even get me started on the tenacity of the lowly Wood Roach).

I'd just like to find out if the avg. amounts used by us poultry folks present a mortal threat to healthy hives or, do the chooks take down more in the run than transfers of the substance back to the hive?

This is where I found the info on toxicity: http://extension.oregonstate.edu/catalog/pdf/pnw/pnw591.pdf

If I read it wrong let me know!

P.S. Like the Honey Bees - hate the Yellow Jackets (DE doesn't do much to them, bummer)

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
The effect of DE on arthropods is basically to create bazillions of microscopic scratches thru the waxy cuticle outside of their exoskeleton, with the result that they dehydrate to death. (Edited to add: it also ain't good for their innards if they ingest it). It is a mechanical effect of getting a significant amount of the DE on the surface of the critter. Very different than the mode of action of practically any other pesticide.

I would bet you anything that the reason for that short residual action time is that the powder just does not stay on the flowers the bees are visiting for very long. (It falls/blows off, to areas bees don't frequent and gets spread out in concentrations too low to be very harmful).

I am not sure, though, that really applies to the way DE is used in chicken coops, because the whole point of its use is generally to put it in places where it stays resident for a good long while, providing lasting control of mites and lice.

The main question I think is "how likely are bees to land on coop surfaces that carry a substantial load of DE?" A beekeeper type person, of which we have several on BYC, would be best equipped to answer that, I think. Hopefully they will chime in here...


Pat

 

[beekybuzzard]

DE is definitely dangerous to the honeybees. When the chickens are dusting themselves the DE gets spread around quite liberally and get onto the flowers and weeds wherever the wind blows it. It does not take much to devastate a hive. Just a little tracked where the queen will come in contact to it or the nurse bees and they are goners along with any that may brush into any cells. I have spoken with nearby neighbors and farmers and they have thankfully agreed not to use it around here.......... they all enjoy the free honey samples too much.

 

[patandchickens]

When the chickens are dusting themselves the DE gets spread around quite liberally and get onto the flowers and weeds wherever the wind blows it. It does not take much to devastate a hive.

But what if it is only used INSIDE the coop?


Pat​

 

[Tuffoldhen]

There are quite a few more dangerous insecticides use by the neighborhhood in their veggie gardens and flowerbeds on plants that have done more damage to a honey bee colony or hive than my using DE inside my coop and run.....I will continue to dust my hens and roosters ...........

 

[ivan3]

I would bet you anything that the reason for that short residual action time is that the powder just does not stay on the flowers the bees are visiting for very long. (It falls/blows off, to areas bees don't frequent and gets spread out in concentrations too low to be very harmful).

Yes, that's what I'm wondering about: "areas that bees don't frequent" "spread out in concentrations too low to be very harmful".

We had some of the wild fellas already trying to make their move (on a hummingbird feeder Cass didn't have the heart to take down) during a brief warmup in January. I like visiting the hives (another reason to trap coons - tried to dig out a hive). There is quite a differential impact on various arthropods via DE and, as the honey bees keep showing up I never looked into this.

Thanks for the info!​