Raising layers in a chicken tractor with higher intensity.

[Youngshin]

Hello friends,

I want to know if there are any problems or potential downsides to raising layers in a similar-to-broiler setting.

For example, Richard Perkins raises his 75 broilers in a Salatin-Style chicken tractor which has 12m2 of space, and explains that this intensity was calculated by Joel Salatin for nitrogen utilization of a given pasture when broilers are fully grown and moving twice a day. Which translates to 0.32m2 for broilers per day. And he raises his 400 layers in a 400m2 space and moves them once in two days. Which translates to 0.5m2 for layers per day.

So my questions are, what is the reasoning for giving more space for layers compared to broilers? Is it okay to raise them at the same intensity?

Furthermore, what about raising layers in a chicken tractor? I want to raise them in a chicken tractor where I modulate the height to 90cm(3 feet) for installing perches and build a rollaway nest box on one side of the tractor. Would this have an obvious problem?

Lastly, if the above is okay, could you bring up the intensity of layers based on their weight? Broilers are about 3kg when they are fully grown and layers are 1.8~1.9kg. So I'm curious if it's fine to raise 1.5 times more layers in a given space than broilers.

FYI, even if I raise 56(75*1.5/2. I divided two to only move them once per day) layers in a chicken tractor, it far exceeds the animal welfare level of space(9 per m2, which is 108) so the regulation where I live is not a problem.

Any insights would be greatly appreciated. Please leave a comment if you have any thoughts!

 

[NatJ]

Furthermore, what about raising layers in a chicken tractor? I want to raise them in a chicken tractor where I modulate the height to 90cm(3 feet) for installing perches and build a rollaway nest box on one side of the tractor. Would this have an obvious problem?

I do not see any obvious problems with that idea.

what is the reasoning for giving more space for layers compared to broilers? Is it okay to raise them at the same intensity?

could you bring up the intensity of layers based on their weight? Broilers are about 3kg when they are fully grown and layers are 1.8~1.9kg. So I'm curious if it's fine to raise 1.5 times more layers in a given space than broilers.

I can think of several reasons that layers might need more space:

1) The amount of waste. This should be roughly proportional to the size of the chicken, but can be somewhat different is they are eating more because they are growing (broilers) or eating more because they are laying (layers.) I do not know which one actually produces more waste per pound of live chicken.

2) How they act. Broilers that are raised for about 2 months are still immature, and act differently than adult layers. So the different behavior patterns might require a different amount of space. Crowded chickens cause many kinds of trouble (like pecking each other to death), and layers might feel "crowded" at a different rate than broilers.

3) Air quality is a big issue for chickens raised in buildings (droppings, bad smells, ammonia, actual harm if the ammonia level gets too high.) Modern guidelines allow for more chickens in the same space because of how they ventilate the buildings, as compared with guidelines in the past when they did not use things like powered fans. A chicken tractor may not have issues with this, because it has more open space on the sides, and because it is surrounded by lots of outdoor space instead of being surrounded by more thousands of chickens.

4) If you are planning to sell eggs, you may be able to sell more eggs, or sell the eggs for more money, if the customers think your chickens are being treated well. What the customers think can make a big difference in some cases.

FYI, even if I raise 56(75*1.5/2. I divided two to only move them once per day) layers in a chicken tractor, it far exceeds the animal welfare level of space(9 per m2, which is 108) so the regulation where I live is not a problem.

I'm glad that you will not have legal problems if you try it

I think it comes down to how you want to raise your chickens, what conditions you want them to live in, and what problems they do cause or do not cause. In general, more space lets you avoid quite a few problems, but there is no exact amount of space that will cause or prevent any specific problem.

There are some kinds of problems that can be "solved" in a variety of ways. Two examples:

--coccidiosis is more of a problem in moist or wet conditions. The more chickens in the space, the more droppings there are, and the more moist/wet it is. Providing more space per chicken is one way to address this. Medicated feed is another way to address this. Because it takes a certain amount of time for the coccidia to multiply enough to cause a problem, moving the chickens to fresh ground every day or two is also a way to address this. And just living in one climate vs. another can make an enormous difference in whether coccidiosis is a big problem or not.

--pecking can be a major problem when chickens are crowded. Some people avoid it by providing more space. Some people put "peepers" on the chickens so they cannot easily see to peck. Some commerical producers cut the pointy tips off the beaks. Some commercial producers put the hens in small groups in cages, so they cannot gang up on a specific bird. If you move the chickens to new ground every day or two, they may stay busy foraging and not start pecking at each other. Or they may peck anyway, in which case you will have to try something else.

Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

You might have to just try it and see how it goes. There are so many things that can be different from one place to another, that it can be hard to predict. It would probably be good to have plans for removing birds if you do have problems (sell them, butcher them, move them to another pen-- whatever works for you.)

 

[BastyPutt]

@NatJ makes a lot of great points.

A broiler chicken is miles different than a laying hen in every aspect. A broilers only aspiration is to eat and poop, then die very young.

A laying hen is far more complex. The first thing that comes to mind here is stress, specifically how it relates to egg production. It is proven that happier hens lay more eggs - and that many hens crammed into such a small area will cause a lot of stress.

I'd try it only if you have a back up plan as to what to do with the birds.

 

[BastyPutt]

it far exceeds the animal welfare level of space(9 per m2, which is 108) so the regulation where I live is not a problem

Lastly - I don't doubt this is correct, but certainly isn't a humane way to raise a laying hen.

 

[Youngshin]

Thanks for your excellent reply @NatJ !

1) The amount of waste. This should be roughly proportional to the size of the chicken, but can be somewhat different is they are eating more because they are growing (broilers) or eating more because they are laying (layers.) I do not know which one actually produces more waste per pound of live chicken.

I think broilers would have more waste since they eat way more. From the broiler feeding cheat sheet of Richard Perkins, he feeds his fully grown 50+ days old broilers 240g of feed every day and that broiler would weigh 3kg live weight. On the other hand, less than 2kg layers are fed around 120 grams I think. Layers would probably forage more but I guess the poops are still coming out more from broilers.

2) How they act. Broilers that are raised for about 2 months are still immature, and act differently than adult layers. So the different behavior patterns might require a different amount of space. Crowded chickens cause many kinds of trouble (like pecking each other to death), and layers might feel "crowded" at a different rate than broilers.

I have not thought about this problem! I guess I have to find out myself. Hopefully, they are fine since the flock size itself is not that big and the intensity is well below the regulations..

3) Air should be perfectly good since my design of the chicken tractor has a 4-side chicken wire.

4) If you are planning to sell eggs, you may be able to sell more eggs, or sell the eggs for more money, if the customers think your chickens are being treated well. What the customers think can make a big difference in some cases.

I agree that proper egg mobile looks absolutely better than a chicken tractor setting. Would think about this!

--coccidiosis is more of a problem in moist or wet conditions.

This is one of my major concerns since my leased land has been used for tillage-based mono-crop farming for years and the infiltration rate is extremely poor. Fingers crossed and hope chickens would bring the healing magic..

Again, thank you for your thoughtful reply!

 

[Mrs. K]

A lot will depend on your predators. Anything that moves is more vulnerable than anything solid. And your landscape, it would need to be pretty flat or as you move it gaps will appear.

Are you just spreading manure or are you anticipating a lower feed bill? You would also need quite a bit of space, how long do you leave a space after they have been on it for 2 days?

Mrs K

 

[Youngshin]

@NatJ makes a lot of great points.

A broiler chicken is miles different than a laying hen in every aspect. A broilers only aspiration is to eat and poop, then die very young.

A laying hen is far more complex. The first thing that comes to mind here is stress, specifically how it relates to egg production. It is proven that happier hens lay more eggs - and that many hens crammed into such a small area will cause a lot of stress.

I'd try it only if you have a back up plan as to what to do with the birds.

Maybe I should move them twice a day to give them more space

Lastly - I don't doubt this is correct, but certainly isn't a humane way to raise a laying hen.

I completely agree and want to do better. But since this is the first year of independent farming for me, building a proper egg mobile seems a bit too much for me for now. So I was trying to find if there are any alternative ways to raise layers and still move them regularly for land regeneration!

 

[Youngshin]

A lot will depend on your predators. Anything that moves is more vulnerable than anything solid. And your landscape, it would need to be pretty flat or as you move it gaps will appear.

Are you just spreading manure or are you anticipating a lower feed bill? You would also need quite a bit of space, how long do you leave a space after they have been on it for 2 days?

Mrs K

I leased the land that has been cropped and it is fairly flat.

My main purpose is to spread manure to the low organic matter land and to get high-quality eggs in return. I'm okay with the normal feed bill.

In my rough calculation, a chicken tractor would come back to the same land 70~110 days after depending on the paddock. Maybe I should build more tractors? Hmm

 

[NatJ]

I completely agree and want to do better. But since this is the first year of independent farming for me, building a proper egg mobile seems a bit too much for me for now. So I was trying to find if there are any alternative ways to raise layers and still move them regularly for land regeneration!

I think the "not humane" was about how much space per hen, not whether they were in a tractor or egg mobile or some other style of housing.

I agree that proper egg mobile looks absolutely better than a chicken tractor setting. Would think about this!

The same tractor can look better or worse depending on how many chickens are in it.

If it looks crowded, and the chickens look dirty/ratty, that makes a very different impression than the same tractor with half the chickens, half the droppings, less stress, and the hens can probably keep themselves groomed more nicely.

 

[Mrs. K]

Thing is, chicken manure is hot, needs to be aged. Chicken manure is not like cattle, horse, sheep, goat, or rabbits, with a lot of organic matter in it. Those tend to be high in organic matter, but lower in fertilizing elements of N, P, K. Where as chicken manure is high in N,P, K and lower in organic matter, there is some, but not enough to effect low organic matter soil. So once you have good organic matter in your soil, then chicken manure can really provide a good fertilizer, if it is aged properly.

You will need to really age the manure, before you plant anything, as it is hot.

I don't think really that chickens will improve your soil, if the problem is organic matter. They will tear the soil up, eat the roots, remove the plant life there. To improve organic matter of the soil you need well rotted compost. Now chicken manure will help create good compost, but you need browns with it too. High cellulose plant material.

I have two coops, and after I keep birds in the second coop, and they decimate the greens, it takes a long time for the plants to come back. Granted, I am not moving the cage every day...but that will be pretty labor intensive too.

I would talk to your cooperative extension agent in your community, for advice on improving the soil. I think you might be happier and get better results with planting a cover crop, tilling it in, planting it again, collecting manure plus bedding, putting that on top, and a whole lot of time. We live on pure sand, due to seas thousands of years ago, and that is how I added organic matter to my garden. It is slow.

Mrs K