Recessive Slate Turkeys (from Porter's)

[ShannonR]

Honestly if you thought this through you would realize they would benefit more by selling without a contract then they do with it. As it stands only a handful of individually picked breeders have these birds from Porter's. I am sure he hasn't made a profit after you factor the cost of importing legally. He isn't concerned with profit so much as building and improving the quality of these lost genetics.

I would also like to add that these birds are largely worthless to many serious breeders until the APA recognizes the variety. And that isn't going to happen until the birds are in the hands of a lot more people than Porter's especially selected contract breeders.

 

[Noellereagan]

I would also like to add that these birds are largely worthless to many serious breeders until the APA recognizes the variety. And that isn't going to happen until the birds are in the hands of a lot more people than Porter's especially selected contract breeders.

The answer is very simple Shannon-
“Issue” one: people aren’t “comfortable” entering into the contract.
Resolution one: so don’t. It’s that simple- keep on moving. Find something you can crossbreed or whatever.

“Issue” number 2: (to directly quote you because this statement certainly IS NOT coming from ME!) “(ShannonR) would also like to add that these birds are largely worthless to many serious breeders until the APA recognizes the variety. And that isn't going to happen until the birds are in the hands of a lot more people than Porter's especially selected contract breeders”

This answer here is also a no-brainer with a VERY simple resolution Shannon- If YOU feel they’re “worthless” don’t buy one. It’s that easy. As for you speaking on behalf of the masses- that requires an awful lot of ... well... nerve. And I beg to differ with your consensus.
So you’re saying- any variety of turkey or any breed of chicken not recognized by the APA is WORTHLESS to serous breeders!? Let’s step back and think about that for a moment Shannon.

Some of the highest selling varieties, breeds and birds in general (speaking of a wide range of poultry) are unusual types or those brought back from the brink of/ complete extinction and NOT YET recognized by the apa for that very reason.
Honestly, I think the opposite of your statement is true. I think WITHOUT the contract to protect and preserve the pure lines and KEVIN’s hard work and investment- the gene would become an epic mess by every backyard breeder crossing on whatever crap that THEY want to in order to get god knows what crap offspring- and with the recessive gene no less. To me, THAT would end up being what would cause a bird like this to be worthless.
Have you not taken economics 101? There’s this thing called supply and demand. I learned about it my junior year of high school. It’s a proven fact that the more limited the supply is (let’s say for the sake of the argument- oh... I don’t know... a recessive lilac turkey with PURE LINES & flawless genetics) the higher the demand goes. When demand rises so too does price. But WAIT... that goes back to another poster’s false accusation. To that end- Kevin COULD charge more- a LOT more- for an individual to purchase and real the rewards of his time, money and effort - but he’s NOT! That screams to me that he’s NOT in it for the money or some other hidden agenda. He’s in it for his love of all that is turkey genetics it seems. It’s a good time to point out that I do not know Kevin porter personally. We are not personal close friends or relatives. He is simply someone I respect from a far for his work in this field. I think the personal attacks and the false accusations on this thread are outrageous. It really disappointments me in this community I have come to respect and rely on for so much. There are a few of you who really showed true colors (in a good light by pointing out what BS this thread is and stating the obvious) here that I’ve developed a profound respect for as well. You know who you are.

But back to the point- this thread serves as evidence to me that porter needs this contract to do just what he’s trying to do. Without it I’m sure this exotic line he’s brought back would possibly become “worthless to serous breeders”. Thankfully, he had the forthought to put a contact in place so the line doesn’t become garbage by way of reasons behind why this thread even exists in the first place. What’s funny is that - it seems to me that the whole reason he felt a contract necessary is admitted by a few posters on this very thread. He was right!

If I want to piss all over his work (again being a purchaser of this line and someone who had no problem with the contract because I didn’t have a hidden agenda) and investment- I would have it coming to lose the birds and be fined $10,000 here. AGAIN, As someone who ISN’T afraid that I entered into this very contract- I assure you that he’s not in it for that. But I’m not the sole contract signer. @fowlmouthhatchery Spole up earlier - clearly- as a fellow contract signer she has had no problems as such and spoke up on porter’s behalf. I am certain he’s not looking for reasons to fine people and take birds away. It’s appualing to me that this very undertone is even present.

Come on! Think about it. Think about all he’s done and continues to....
for example-
Have YOU ever used his own creation of the online genetic calclutor? With all the talk of cross breeding here- my guess is yes. How much did he charge you for that? Mmmmmhmmmmm.... that’s what I thought. Absolutely NOTHING. Doesn’t sound like someone out to screw people over to me. In fact I’ve never heard a bad word about him. And this thread displays nothing but disrespect for someone who has contributed something to the life of most turkey owners in the US- on some level- maybe even the world. So just STOP. It’s uncalled for and wrong.
I don’t like being this way but this thread should be down. I reported it and if you respect Kevin you should too. It’s just not right. I will note that anyone I have met here that’s earned my respect is NOT engaging in commenting on this thread. Thank god. I just wish admins would take it down as I know it to be true that Kevin porter is a friend to byc and often refers those in the poultry community to this very site. If I were him I wouldn’t after seeing this crap.

I apologize if I sound harsh. Actually, no I don’t. I’m just very disappointed.

Admins- please remove this thread and hopefully you haven’t lost a good friend to BYC (porter) yet. Again, he sends people this way all the time. Don’t take my word for it- search the web for articles he’s authored- to where he has this very site linked. If I were him - and I seen this- that would all come crashing down.

That’s all. I’ve said my piece. Which I debated on not saying at the risk of inciting additional ignorance. I’m sorry but it’s true.

Sincerely,
Noelle Reagan

 

[memphis]

Noelle...good points all. I'd be interested in a thread for those who are on this journey with Kevin. Your right. He's poured so much into the genetics of turkeys. Purely a labor of love.
By the way....that darn genetics calculator is highly addictive. There should be a warning label on it!!

 

[Bluegenes]

It seems like some people don't understand how much Porter's has pioneered in turkey genetics. This thread was made assuming that knowledge. So anyone who is questioning his integrity or contributions to turkeys clearly hasn't delved deeply into genetics and heritage turkeys. My intention was never impune on his character or genetics achievements. I'm assuming the contact is only a temporary thing to try to get some serious and pure breeding flocks established, to prevent the gene from getting wiped out were something to happen to one or more flocks. I do think the contract will backfire if he intends to keep it long term, since it will keep the vast majority of people from ever owning them, but my guess is it is temporary and all this will all be irrelevant in a few years.

But, (and I could be wrong on this) recessive slate turkeys from what I can tell are not a distinct BREED, but a heritage turkey whose genotype includes a gene previously extinct in the US. If there is something else distinctive in body type, size, temperament, etc., then my point is obviously moot, but if not I'm not sure how the birds accidentally or intentionally getting crossed to other quality heritage turkeys would "bastardized the breed" anymore than crossing the dominant slate gene into Bronzes to create Blue Bronzes bastardized Bronzes or Slates. A gene is just a gene, either a bird has it or they don't. As long as someone knew what gene they were working with I don't think it would matter if it was over a bronze base or black wing bronze base.

 

[Noellereagan]

It seems like some people don't understand how much Porter's has pioneered in turkey genetics. This thread was made assuming that knowledge. So anyone who is questioning his integrity or contributions to turkeys clearly hasn't delved deeply into genetics and heritage turkeys. My intention was never impune on his character or genetics achievements. I'm assuming the contact is only a temporary thing to try to get some serious and pure breeding flocks established, to prevent the gene from getting wiped out were something to happen to one or more flocks. I do think the contract will backfire if he intends to keep it long term, since it will keep the vast majority of people from ever owning them, but my guess is it is temporary and all this will all be irrelevant in a few years.

But, (and I could be wrong on this) recessive slate turkeys from what I can tell are not a distinct BREED, but a heritage turkey whose genotype includes a gene previously extinct in the US. If there is something else distinctive in body type, size, temperament, etc., then my point is obviously moot, but if not I'm not sure how the birds accidentally or intentionally getting crossed to other quality heritage turkeys would "bastardized the breed" anymore than crossing the dominant slate gene into Bronzes to create Blue Bronzes bastardized Bronzes or Slates. A gene is just a gene, either a bird has it or they don't. As long as someone knew what gene they were working with I don't think it would matter if it was over a bronze base or black wing bronze base.

I haven’t had a chance to read this thread but I did catch a sentence and I just wanted to say that technically the recessive slate isn’t a breed but then again neither is bronze, or black- it is the turkey that is the breed and the color is the variety. So you’re right it’s not a breed. But I suppose now I’m splitting hairs

 

[ShannonR]

Sorry you don't like what I have to say. But this contract seems to be excessively controlling, to the point of making the variety irrelevant for general purposes. The OP asked for our opinions on said contract, and I gave it freely.

I don't see greenfire farms requiring contracts on whatever new breed of the week they are selling, why should Porter's be any different? However do the breeds that Greenfire imports and works with survive the potential "bastardization" of us lowly backyard chicken keepers? Lol.

This supposedly new, or even better yet previously "extinct" variety is just the newest fad, except with turkeys instead of chickens. I think some posters here need to realize that.

 

[MissChick@dee]

How would they ever enforce that contract. Unrealistic

 

[WunnySharbit]

I'd like to reroute this thread slightly--APA SOP

I understand the concepts behind reviving an ancient/heritage variety. My question however has to do with the future, namely will the Recessive breeders be seeking APA acceptance and its own SOP? I am familiar with how rabbit/cavy breeds/varieties are approved and the long involved process--how does it work with APA certification? Are you all working on the SOP for variety? I know for rabbits it's common to have several breeders working to improve the genetics for not just the color, but the conformation, reproductive soundness, etc. Are you singly or wholly working on improvements as well as color or is color the only criteria at the moment?

 

[WunnySharbit]

Also, about the contract. It appears that the contract simply states that you will treat the animals properly--food, housing, medical, etc. If you don't, and end up on Animal Cops, they can take the animals back (you pay shipping). If you refuse and they come get the animals, you pay all expenses. The fine appears to be like a "pain and suffering" clause, but since animals can't receive this from the court, it's attached to the breed/variety (economic value/status-which can be received). The parts about offspring and selling remind me of the tiger breeding programs: all pure Siberian tigers (in zoos or release programs), for example, exist in a genome database to ensure purity and prevent severe inbreeding (genetic defects). Any unknown tigers (eg pets-culls) are sterilized to maintain genetic purity (Turkey culls are much tastier than tiger culls). IMO, the contract is to scare off the indiscriminate breeders who will breed a bunch and sell them as "rare/exotic" at a huge markup, seeing them only as things to be used and discarded, not cared for and cherished for the remarkable critters they are! If you truly are interested and have the "right stuff," there should be no problem at all with this contract. if you are still unsure, contact them directly and ask!
BEAUTIFUL bird!

 

[memphis]

Good post Bluegenes. Kevin is trying to reestablish a extinct gene in the States. I think the contract is a genius way to discourage indiscriminate breeders and pull together those with his same goals. People need to get over the contract & look at the big picture & what this man is attempting to do.